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Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

arxiv.org

101–110 of 191 posts

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#101

a Subset cannot have greater cardinality than the set it derives from. Subjective existence cannot be reduced to Math because it is our explorations in subjectivity that led to math’s invention and refinement

By refering to 'math's invention' you are already prejudicing the matter.

It is precisely whether Maths is a subset of subjective experience that we invented or whether it has always been a superset of the universe our subjective experience is embedded in that we merely discovered is precisely what is at issue here.

It's easy to get confused by the language used to frame things. I could say that language only has countably infinite possible statements, so it must therefore be impossible to use set theory which is learnt through and derives from language to analyse uncountably infinite sets, but it would be a bad argument.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#102
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read 75% of the article, until he'd made enough unfounded statements that there was no point continuing with his inferences from them. Also, his assertion is as simple as I've suggested, although I won't bother with a detailed rebuttal of it (I've dealt with several others, and generated my own in the past), largely because the blog my previous reply was about already handles that. Some excerpts from the article: >…

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. I actually just finished Tegmarks new book Life 3.0, which touches on consciousness and qualia in the context of understanding AGI, and I think he'd actually argue that qualia is an "emergent property" of certain categories of information flow, much like waves are an emergent property of certain types of phenomena. I'm don't think that is a sufficient argument to explain subjectiv…

Hey gfodor, I actually do agree with your line of thinking all the way up to and including logic gates with qualia—however, when you say:

> I'm don't think that is a sufficient argument to explain subjective experience,

—I have to agree with that, and I haven't seen anything which makes me think a better justification might be forthcoming (from anyone, not just Tegmark), so I kind of stop there.

My personal view on it is that qualia/subjectivity are just what it's like to actually be a thing ('on the inside' is kind of an approximate way of saying it). Considering the sorts of things that go on in human subjectivity (this time referring to objects appearing in it, not the medium itself), I suppose it is what it's like to be the part of the reality where a human brain is (actually I think it's only certain parts of human brains, probably related to executive function). In that case, I think a bunch of logic cates linked together in certain ways could end up having interesting 'internal aspects' (of course 'interesting' here is human-relative: who's to say the the parts of reality comprising trees aren't internally more interesting in some objective measure? (not that I think there is an objective measure for that.)

But I qualify the above as just how I guess that things are, not an assertion that it's really the case or anything.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#103
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It baffles me that people ignore the fact that they have subjectivity when making these claims. Do they? Everyone is entitled to their unquestioned assumptions as long as they state them outright and describe their parameters. I have yet to see dualists (which ultimately is at the base of this whole line of argumentation) admit that they posit subjective experience _without evidence_, since they equate asking quest…

> The fact remains that no entity can successfully prove to another entity that it has inner experience, so how would proving you have subjectivity to _your own mind_ work? If you are trying to 'prove' subjectivity, in the sense of providing an argument for it, then you are missing the point: you already experience it directly by definition, so there is nothing to prove. > This is a bizarre and unsupportable statemen…

> I am arguing against the idea that the computation (i.e. the math part) carried out the physical process—not the other way around.

Ah, I see. But that follows directly from the computable universe hypothesis.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#104

It baffles me that people ignore the fact that they have subjectivity when making these claims. It makes a certain amount of sense since science itself aims to remove any taint of subjectivity in its practice, so folks who want to be thoroughly 'scientific' in other aspects of their lives (e.g. their personal philosophies of reality) carry over over this ideal. But it's also a contradiction since science scientific m…

> It baffles me that people ignore the fact that they have subjectivity when making these claims.

The author does not ignore that but states his assumption on the first page:

The foundation of my argument is the assumption that there exists an external physical reality independent of us humans.

EDIT: Clarification: "external physical reality" means to me that we can rule out subjectivity here.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#105

a Subset cannot have greater cardinality than the set it derives from. Subjective existence cannot be reduced to Math because it is our explorations in subjectivity that led to math’s invention and refinement

A subset can have equal cardinality as the set it is a subset of, if the set is infinite.

I don't think that subjectivity can be reduced to math, but reducing math to subjectivity doesn't obviously imply that subjectivity cannot be reduced to math, as far as I can see right now.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#106

It baffles me that people ignore the fact that they have subjectivity when making these claims. It makes a certain amount of sense since science itself aims to remove any taint of subjectivity in its practice, so folks who want to be thoroughly 'scientific' in other aspects of their lives (e.g. their personal philosophies of reality) carry over over this ideal. But it's also a contradiction since science scientific m…

a comment I made earlier, with Hannah Arendt quoting Heisenberg on the matter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15634222

In the prologue of "Vita Activa" she wrote this:

> This future man, whom the scientists tell us they will produce in no more than a hundred years, seems to be possessed by a rebellion against human existence as it has been given, a free gift from nowhere (secularly speaking), which he wishes to exchange, as it were, for something he has made himself. There is no reason to doubt our abilities to accomplish such an exchange, just as there is no reason to doubt our present ability to destroy all organic life on earth. The question is only whether we wish to use our new scientific and technical knowledge in this direction, and this question cannot be decided by scientific means; it is a political question of the first order and therefore can hardly be left to the decision of professional scientists or professional politicians.

> While such possibilities still may lie in a distant future, the first boomerang effects of science's great triumphs have made themselves felt in a crisis within the natural sciences themselves. The trouble concerns the fact that the "truths" of the modern scientific world view, though they can be demonstrated in mathematical formulas and proved technologically, will no longer lend themselves to normal expression in speech and thought. The moment these "truths" are spoken of conceptually and coherently, the resulting statements will be "not perhaps as meaningless as a 'triangular circle,' but much more so than a 'winged lion' " (Erwin Schrodinger). We do not yet know whether this situation is final. But it could be that we, who are earth-bound creatures and have begun to act as though we were dwellers of the universe, will for- ever be unable to understand, that is, to think and speak about the things which nevertheless we are able to do. In this case, it would be as though our brain, which constitutes the physical, material condition of our thoughts, were unable to follow what we do, so that from now on we would indeed need artificial machines to do our thinking and speaking. If it should turn out to be true that knowledge (in the modern sense of know-how) and thought have parted company for good, then we would indeed become the helpless slaves, not so much of our machines as of our know-how, thoughtless creatures at the mercy of every gadget which is technically possible, no matter how murderous it is.

> However, even apart from these last and yet uncertain consequences, the situation created by the sciences is of great political significance. Wherever the relevance of speech is at stake, matters become political by definition, for speech is what makes man a political being. If we would follow the advice, so frequently urged upon us, to adjust our cultural attitudes to the present status of scientific achievement, we would in all earnest adopt a way of life in which speech is no longer meaningful. For the sciences today have been forced to adopt a "language" of mathematical symbols which, though it was originally meant only as an abbreviation for spoken statements, now contains statements that in no way can be translated back into speech. The reason why it may be wise to distrust the political judgment of scientists qua scientists is not primarily their lack of "character" — that they did not refuse to develop atomic weapons — or their naivete — that they did not understand that once these weapons were developed they would be the last to be consulted about their use — but precisely the fact that they move in a world where speech has lost its power. And whatever men do or know or experience can make sense only to the extent that it can be spoken about. There may be truths beyond speech, and they may be of great relevance to man in the singular, that is, to man in so far as he is not a political being, whatever else he may be. Men in the plural, that is, men in so far as they live and move and act in this world, can experience meaningfulness only because they can talk with and make sense to each other and to themselves.

As for the paper:

"It is important to remember, however, that it is we humans who create these concepts" vs. "Modern mathematics is the formal study of structures that can be defined in a purely abstract way."

What's the definition of "to define"? Create a concept of something?

"the only properties of integers are those embodied by the relations between them. That is, we don’t invent mathematical structures — we discover them"

That doesn't follow at all. What's worse, you could also use an example sentence about a child and her mother translated into various languages, and say the actual nouns don't matter, just the relation between them. That's how you discover biological relations, that's how you discover what a priest and their function is.

Last, but never least: http://www.bartleby.com/370/55.html

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#107
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This assumption explains why our universe is oddly complex That is, to me, a weird mixing of scales. The universe only seems complex to us because of the scale at which we experience it in terms of time and physical extent as well as the convoluted way our own systems of understanding developed and then were later mutated and stretched into different forms to be better suited, etc. By definition the universe itself…

I think the universe could easily be less complex if you would simply remove everything below Newtonian physics and basic chemistry. We would have evolved in pretty much the same way. But our universe is also complex in that the currently most fundamental laws of physics depend on a lot of seemingly arbitrary constants that are finely tuned (i.e. they become incompatible with our observations if they would be set sli…

I understand that perspective, but to me it seems a failure of history. If we had simply thrown out all of our previous knowledge when we discovered 'lower level' understandings and reformulated them in those terms, we would see no 'special values'. Those values would be 1. And all else would be derived from them, and the things at our scale would look complex and maddening. Temperature measured in Kelvin, velocity measured in ratios off the speed of light, distance based on the planck length, things like that (although I know you're talking more about the fine structure constant and things of that nature, but I think it could be done with them as well).

The question, in my mind at least, is how to show that the quantum understanding leads, on the macro scale, to the emergent phenomena we observe and once thought unitary. That's a great degree of precision and division between entities to arise out of the nonlinear interactions of bunches of 'particles'. And given the scale on which such things emerged (the universal one), clearly a proper system of understanding would make the emergence of things like atoms, molecules, chemistry, astronomy, geologies, planets, solar systems, galaxies, stars, and all those things self-evident. But... save for a few exceptions (more all the time though which is encouraging!) we rarely even look at things en-masse. It's all well and good to know how 2 bodies interact under gravitation. But when your system falls apart with 3, and you really need to be able to toss in a trillion with dozens of other nonlinear relationships... It really ought to be more obvious, I would think, that we're missing something.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#108
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very strange quote you did... did you honestly think that I meant the pronoun 'it' to mean 'predict'? I absolutely did not. The universe does it. It executes. It evolves along the pathway and 'calculates' (if you wish) the end result. A thing which no mathematics can, or will ever be able to, do.

> calculates ... the end result It does not do that, either. (Because there is no "end result" to calculate.)

If you are looking for the future position of a particle, the future position of that particle is by definition the result sought. I think I might not understand your meaning.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#109
post #104

It baffles me that people ignore the fact that they have subjectivity when making these claims. It makes a certain amount of sense since science itself aims to remove any taint of subjectivity in its practice, so folks who want to be thoroughly 'scientific' in other aspects of their lives (e.g. their personal philosophies of reality) carry over over this ideal. But it's also a contradiction since science scientific m…

> It baffles me that people ignore the fact that they have subjectivity when making these claims. The author does not ignore that but states his assumption on the first page: The foundation of my argument is the assumption that there exists an external physical reality independent of us humans. EDIT: Clarification: "external physical reality" means to me that we can rule out subjectivity here.

Yes, I thought that part of the article was kind of funny: just because we admit an external reality that is supposed to imply there is no internal reality?

Here's the one other part where he references subjectivity/qualia:

> In this example, the frog itself must consist of a thick bundle of pasta whose highly complex structure corresponds to particles that store and process information in a way that gives rise to the familiar sensation of self-awareness.

This is too big an big assumption to make: processing something gives rise to sensations? Just because the processing is mathematically describable, is the sensation also? What would the mathematical description of the experience of a fever chill look like? This is the typical omission made by the many people who have formed similar arguments to Tegmark.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#110
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact remains that no entity can successfully prove to another entity that it has inner experience, so how would proving you have subjectivity to _your own mind_ work? If you are trying to 'prove' subjectivity, in the sense of providing an argument for it, then you are missing the point: you already experience it directly by definition, so there is nothing to prove. > This is a bizarre and unsupportable statemen…

> I am arguing against the idea that the computation (i.e. the math part) carried out the physical process—not the other way around. Ah, I see. But that follows directly from the computable universe hypothesis.

Right, which if I accepted we wouldn't be having this conversation :)
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