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Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

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Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#71
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of a nice argument against simulationism that I think applies here: If simulated universes can be "real," then we're assuming that there's a mapping between patterns of electrons in a computer (or provable theorems, if you're brave enough), and the real universe they represent. (Say, interpreting two numbers that may be stored very far apart on the chip as the positions of two particles that are, in the univer…

Not to say that I think that the world is a simulation or anything like that (I don't), but I think that computational complexity and related things probably do induce a natural notion of "naturality" on the different mappings. Even if there might not be a single most natural mapping, I think it makes sense to say that some mappings are more natural than others. I think there is a natural sense which is independent f…

Computational complexity is an insufficient motivator, because while in our current universe some problems are hard and others are easy, in the hypothetical universe there might be a law of physics that solves NP-hard problems. In fact, if the problem is right, you might even end up in a situation where they can't hook their NP-hard problem solvers together in a way that solves problems that we would consider polynomial.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, reality works because reality cannot contain contradictions. But the set of possible structures without contradiction is a superset of what is physically realizable. And mathematics is just discovering and cataloging the set of structures without contradiction. So reality works because math works.

If in your math 2+2 does not give you 4 it's not reality that is wrong, but your math. >So reality works because math works. Reality is that the one that contains the structures not math. So what you said does not make sense.

>Reality is that the one that contains the structures not math

But math contains all physically realizable structure, i.e. all structure that can represent some feature of reality. But also structure that cannot be realized in reality, e.g. sets too big to fit in reality. That one can deduce some logical structure from observing reality isn't the deciding factor here.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of a nice argument against simulationism that I think applies here: If simulated universes can be "real," then we're assuming that there's a mapping between patterns of electrons in a computer (or provable theorems, if you're brave enough), and the real universe they represent. (Say, interpreting two numbers that may be stored very far apart on the chip as the positions of two particles that are, in the univer…

Not sure why this is an argument against simulationism. As far as I can tell, you're just making the point that any system could be regarded as simulating any other system given a sufficiently complex mapping. This seems more like an argument for simulation than against it. In fact, I first heard this argument a long time ago in high school as part of a discussion on panpsychism - the speaker claimed that a cup of te…

[deleted]

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#74
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This (the universe is 'made' of math) seems to me like the most egregious error in the general outlook of contemporary scientifically-minded people—and one I made myself for many years. If you really consider the issue closely, you'll see it depends on not overlooking certain dark corners of it which you can sort of ignore and assume to not contain contradictions—but they're there! And once you see them, it's hard to…

Have you read the paper or the author's book? Because you're distilling a rather rich and refined argument down to a simplistic description. The author doesn't argue the universe is "made" of math.

I read 75% of the article, until he'd made enough unfounded statements that there was no point continuing with his inferences from them. Also, his assertion is as simple as I've suggested, although I won't bother with a detailed rebuttal of it (I've dealt with several others, and generated my own in the past), largely because the blog my previous reply was about already handles that. Some excerpts from the article:

> I advocate an extreme “shut-up-and-calculate” approach to physics, where our external physical reality is assumed to be purely mathematical.

> Here, I will push this idea to its extreme and argue that our universe is not just described by mathematics — it is mathematics.

> Everything in our world is purely mathematical — including you.

Here's one mistake he makes: he doesn't account for qualia, the fact that people have subjectivity. Here is the one sentence where he glosses over it:

> In this example, the frog itself must consist of a thick bundle of pasta whose highly complex structure corresponds to particles that store and process information in a way that gives rise to the familiar sensation of self-awareness.

This is a pretty big assumption to make: processing something gives rise to sensations? Just because the processing is mathematically describable, is the sensation also? What would the mathematical description of the experience of a fever chill look like? And what about the 'system' that carries out the transition from process to sensation? Could it even be called a 'system' or is it more on the order of the fever chill itself?

Edit: I clarified a few things a couple minutes after posting.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of a nice argument against simulationism that I think applies here: If simulated universes can be "real," then we're assuming that there's a mapping between patterns of electrons in a computer (or provable theorems, if you're brave enough), and the real universe they represent. (Say, interpreting two numbers that may be stored very far apart on the chip as the positions of two particles that are, in the univer…

Not sure why this is an argument against simulationism. As far as I can tell, you're just making the point that any system could be regarded as simulating any other system given a sufficiently complex mapping. This seems more like an argument for simulation than against it. In fact, I first heard this argument a long time ago in high school as part of a discussion on panpsychism - the speaker claimed that a cup of te…

It's possible to think about the complexity of going between encoding schemes, but unless you've got a special representation blessed as the right way to write things, you won't be able to build a tier system where some encoding schemes are more awkward than others. Normally we have no problem doing this because we can recognize a well-written answer when we see it, but that's based on no more than the way our own brains work (at best, on the parts of our brains that are the way they are because of the universe we live in.)

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#76

It baffles me that people ignore the fact that they have subjectivity when making these claims. It makes a certain amount of sense since science itself aims to remove any taint of subjectivity in its practice, so folks who want to be thoroughly 'scientific' in other aspects of their lives (e.g. their personal philosophies of reality) carry over over this ideal. But it's also a contradiction since science scientific m…

You're right, and I also see how this obvious observation is consistently and elegantly ignored in most scientific or philosophical arguments that try and promote some totally "objective" account of reality.

However, it's not really that surprising: Science over the centuries has steadily (and for it's time, justifiably) eroded the role of subjectivity in order to uncompromisingly get at what is consistently true (regardless of what we'd like to be true) and this process required being very suspicious of any subjective accounts that can't be measured.

That being said, perhaps the time has come to dig a bit deeper and in the same persistent and uncompromising way ask what does objectivity or subjectivity mean? What do they arise from and to whom? I don't know if any new technologies can be derived from having clearer insights to these questions, but I do feel that it would be time better spent than any untestable mind made artifact about what reality ultimately is.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#77

If our reality consists of mathematical programs and the multiverse theory holds, then the theory of everything is a simple incrementing binary counter. Every possible binary string is ran on a Turing machine in a different universe. The halting problem (endless loops) is sidestepped by being contained to a single universe. Also, apparently our universe got lucky as we get to live in an ordered universe, and not diss…

can we rollback that tape ?

it somewhat more complicated

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why this is an argument against simulationism. As far as I can tell, you're just making the point that any system could be regarded as simulating any other system given a sufficiently complex mapping. This seems more like an argument for simulation than against it. In fact, I first heard this argument a long time ago in high school as part of a discussion on panpsychism - the speaker claimed that a cup of te…

It's possible to think about the complexity of going between encoding schemes, but unless you've got a special representation blessed as the right way to write things, you won't be able to build a tier system where some encoding schemes are more awkward than others. Normally we have no problem doing this because we can recognize a well-written answer when we see it, but that's based on no more than the way our own br…

Even encoding schemes themselves have an information theoretic entropy level regardless of universe. Encoding schemes with less entropy can be considered more 'natural' - it's possible to come up with a measure of the 'naturalness' of encoding schemes in a pure mathematical sense without having to take into account entities beyond the mathematical realm.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#79
As stated by the author, this is necessarily a speculative piece ("assuming that..."), but still worth reading -- as long as you keep that in mind. It makes no sense to criticize it or dismiss it for being speculative, as others have done here!

By the way, if you enjoy reading this piece, you might also enjoy really interesting paper coauthored by the same person: "Why does deep and cheap learning work so well?," available at https://arxiv.org/abs/1608.08225 -- it posits that deep learning works well because of the particular structure of the laws of physics in the universe in which we happen to live.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#80

It baffles me that people ignore the fact that they have subjectivity when making these claims. It makes a certain amount of sense since science itself aims to remove any taint of subjectivity in its practice, so folks who want to be thoroughly 'scientific' in other aspects of their lives (e.g. their personal philosophies of reality) carry over over this ideal. But it's also a contradiction since science scientific m…

> It baffles me that people ignore the fact that they have subjectivity when making these claims.

Do they? Everyone is entitled to their unquestioned assumptions as long as they state them outright and describe their parameters. I have yet to see dualists (which ultimately is at the base of this whole line of argumentation) admit that they posit subjective experience _without evidence_, since they equate asking questions and "seeing" things as subjective experience. It's worthwhile debating and deconstructing just exactly what that means before accepting it and its hoaky mystical follow-ons. The fact remains that no entity can successfully prove to another entity that it has inner experience, so how would proving you have subjectivity to _your own mind_ work? You can't, and probably, you don't bother, because it is somehow "self evident" that you have this property. The whole qualia and consciousness debate is riddled with circular reasoning about something that dualists just "feel." Well sometimes I feel like I might have the same thoughts as a jelly donut, go ahead and prove me wrong with math!

> I think people sort of push this point aside either by saying that qualia/subjectivity could be generated by math (or a computational process), and that's what really matters. But we have no examples of abstract math generating anything;

This is a bizarre and unsupportable statement. Clearly physical processes can carry out computation, which is a special case of mathematics (or vice versa, depending on what you got your doctorate in), and computation can produce statements in whatever language you desire, even English. Yes, chips and software stacks produce outputs, even in English. How is that not "generating" something? Ah, but you ask what is inside? Tons! There are gazillions of bits inside computers, and similarly gazillions of flashes in your neural circuitry. That's a whole lot of "inside". How do you know that it _doesn't_ feel like something to be all those twinkling bits? If you still accept without question that you do in fact have subjective experience, doesn't it stand to reason that if the neural network which absolutely definitely does correlate with your consciousness did feel like _anything_, then by definition it would have to feel like this?

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