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GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

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Re: GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

#41

Post by tritium »

joering2 wrote: post #29
lisper wrote: post #26

It is worth noting that there are two different ways to attack GPS: jamming and spoofing. Jamming is when you broadcast a noise signal at the GPS frequency, which prevents affected receivers from receiving the GPS signal. The result is that the GPS doesn't know where it is. Spoofing is when you send out a fake GPS signal that appears genuine but has the wrong timing. The result is that the GPS thinks it knows where i…

This is what keeps my awake at night sometimes... that one of US drones flying over Afghanistan will be eventually fooled into thinking the target it has to drop a bomb on is actually somewhere else over the Europe.

So, what your saying is that you're okay with it dropping bombs at all, as long as it's over there, but not on Europe, because Europe is special. (if not for this imagined hazard, would everything suddenly be okay?)

Meanwhile, political undertones aside, I think your idea is a little contrived, considering the realities of fuel capacity and range, nevermind time to travel, lack of stealth capabilities, and the fact that drones are piloted and engage weaponry mostly by a video feed (and using visual flight rules [0]) which would provide major clues that the GPS information has become unreliable.

tl;dr Drones aren't artificially intelligent solar-powered killbots, flying unsupervised missions. (yet)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_flight_rules

Re: GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

#42

Post by jschwartzi »

lisper wrote: post #40
jschwartzi wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully GPS isn't your sole source of information. When I'm out scrambling I make sure that I carry multiple navigational aids so that I can cross-check. I also pay attention to terrain features before trips as well as during so that I can locate myself, or in the worst case make my way to the handrails that I've identified on my map.

> Hopefully GPS isn't your sole source of information. Nowadays, in modern airplanes, it often is your only source of positional information when you're in instrument conditions (which is, of course, when it matters most). > I carry multiple navigational aids Yeah? Like what?

Compass, Altimeter, topographic maps, notes about the route that I've made. Even a watch can aid navigation if you can calculate your speed and see any terrain features.

If anything doesn't jive with what I expect or what I'm seeing I try to understand why.

Re: GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

#43

Post by anovikov »

lisper wrote: post #40
jschwartzi wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully GPS isn't your sole source of information. When I'm out scrambling I make sure that I carry multiple navigational aids so that I can cross-check. I also pay attention to terrain features before trips as well as during so that I can locate myself, or in the worst case make my way to the handrails that I've identified on my map.

> Hopefully GPS isn't your sole source of information. Nowadays, in modern airplanes, it often is your only source of positional information when you're in instrument conditions (which is, of course, when it matters most). > I carry multiple navigational aids Yeah? Like what?

Why don't planes just carry a good INS? In today's world, it shouldn't be that bad.

Re: GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

#44

Post by sorenjan »

otp124 wrote: post #2

I don’t see the assumption of the cause in the PDF (difficult to read on this tiny mobile device). Could it be iron ore or something else affecting the magnetic fields? Does this happen elsewhere on earth?

The signal came from Russia just weeks before their Zapad exercise, and was clearly intentional.

https://www.nrk.no/finnmark/stoy-fra-russland-slo-ut-gps-sig...

This time it was only blocking GPS signals. Previously this year Russia spoofed GPS signals over the black sea, sending false position data to ships in the area.

https://maritime-executive.com/editorials/mass-gps-spoofing-...

Re: GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

#45

Post by lisper »

jschwartzi wrote: post #42
lisper wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hopefully GPS isn't your sole source of information. Nowadays, in modern airplanes, it often is your only source of positional information when you're in instrument conditions (which is, of course, when it matters most). > I carry multiple navigational aids Yeah? Like what?

Compass, Altimeter, topographic maps, notes about the route that I've made. Even a watch can aid navigation if you can calculate your speed and see any terrain features. If anything doesn't jive with what I expect or what I'm seeing I try to understand why.

Sure, when you're VFR it's pretty easy to notice that your GPS is flying you into a mountain. When you're IFR, not so much.

Re: GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

#46

Post by lisper »

anovikov wrote: post #43
lisper wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hopefully GPS isn't your sole source of information. Nowadays, in modern airplanes, it often is your only source of positional information when you're in instrument conditions (which is, of course, when it matters most). > I carry multiple navigational aids Yeah? Like what?

Why don't planes just carry a good INS? In today's world, it shouldn't be that bad.

Money. INS is still very expensive relative to GPS, and GPS is pretty frickin' reliable 99.99% of the time.

Re: GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

#47

Post by throwaway2048 »

heartbreak wrote: post #39
anovikov wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't. A spoofer doesn't need to know what the signal means/be able to decrypt it. Just retransmit signal received from a different place at higher power. Only way to distinguish it from a real one is timing, but that requires an atomic clock, which is $15,000 and too expensive for most applications. But, military grade GPS receivers use virtual beam forming to achieve a very high attenuation of spoofing signal…

Yeah I doubt the engineers forgot about replay attacks when designing their military GPS.

They arn't very easy to avoid, say you capture the signal from a satellite that is not visible to the receiver, or being jammed out, unless you have an extremely high precision clock, you can just delay the signal rebroadcast and spoof away.

Re: GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

#48

Post by derefr »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #47
heartbreak wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I doubt the engineers forgot about replay attacks when designing their military GPS.

They arn't very easy to avoid, say you capture the signal from a satellite that is not visible to the receiver, or being jammed out, unless you have an extremely high precision clock, you can just delay the signal rebroadcast and spoof away.

Everything involved in GPS requires all the nodes (both the senders and the receivers) to have "extremely high precision clocks."

That's the whole idea, really: you, the receiver, have a clock, and a map of where the various GPS satellites will be around the earth at given times. You "hear" the current time announced from three satellites (along with their station IDs), and compare those times to your clock to figure out the flight time of the data, and thus the distance to the satellites. Then you take the satellites' known positions on the map at the current time, plus the flight times, and triangulate your own position.

If one of the three times you've received is a "lie", then its relative time will correspond to an impossible distance for that GPS satellite to be relative to where the map says it should be (e.g. over the horizon relative to you), and relative to where the other two satellites that you heard from are. (Theoretically you could receive such signals—using reflectors, like HAMs do—but GPS discounts this possibility and just considers it invalid data.)

Re: GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

#49

Post by sorenjan »

johansch wrote: post #3

I experienced a very odd GPS failures about a week later (September 24) in south-eastern Sweden. At one point I was driving for about an hour (in quite isolated areas - around https://www.google.com/maps/@58.0381615,16.2094966,13.37z ) without my iphone being able to get a gps fix. It's never happened before, or since. The phone was fixed to the car's front window with plenty of sight towards the sky. I rebooted the…

According to Washington Post, NATO officials said that at least one Russian ship with electronic warfare capabilities was in the Baltic sea during Aurora. American troops was stationed on Öland, close to where you were. Apparently it affected Latvian telephone networks as well.

There were plenty of signals intelligence planes in the air during the exercise, so it's a good bet that the jamming signals where both recorded and located, and that the information is secret.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/latvias-cellphon...

Re: GPS signal disturbed at altitudes above 2000-3000 feet over Norway [pdf]

#50

Post by ggghvggtff »

tritium wrote: post #41
joering2 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what keeps my awake at night sometimes... that one of US drones flying over Afghanistan will be eventually fooled into thinking the target it has to drop a bomb on is actually somewhere else over the Europe.

So, what your saying is that you're okay with it dropping bombs at all, as long as it's over there, but not on Europe, because Europe is special. (if not for this imagined hazard, would everything suddenly be okay?) Meanwhile, political undertones aside, I think your idea is a little contrived, considering the realities of fuel capacity and range, nevermind time to travel, lack of stealth capabilities, and the fact t…

Wait, so you’re saying you care about Fuckbekistan? Yeah right. Quit it with the virtue-signalling, dude. Christ.
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