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Freelancer.com has ruined my life

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Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#211
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freelancing is about being able to work for whoever you want to. A temp can only work for one person at a time. Those websites allow you to work for more than one person at a time. So those people are, in fact, freelancers, not temps. I hire people on upwork. My favorite person charges $40 an hour. His work is great and gets repeat business from me many times a year. I'm not sure what you're referring to as a scam. T…

free means no fees. free roads have no tolls. free concerts do not charge ticket prices. closed markets, toll roads, private venues all charge fees.

You're confusing libre and gratis.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#212

I worked for Freelancer.com briefly as a software engineer at their HQ in Sydney for about 1 month (that was in the year before their IPO) - I was fresh out of university. The culture within the company was toxic. They treat developers like crap - Both those who use the platform and those who work at HQ. They fired me after 1 month during my probation because I was too slow to implement a feature because I was spendi…

>Several of these horrible people went on to work for Facebook later.

Seems like they're a better fit anyway for the company of "move fast and break things".

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#213
post #195

Like most marketplaces, they are only interested in making themselves profitable. Always remember that. Working at freelancer.com or similar sites is saying: "I should spend a large portion of my life to become an expert in my craft, and then I should agree to have my privacy stripped away from me while I race to the bottom and undercut my competition because I will actively place myself into situations where I have…

So after you take down the number on that ice cream truck you saw driving by, and get back home from your walk and decide to call them, what do you say? Just, "hi! Do you need any software developed"? I've never tried, but it's a little hard for me to imagine ever getting a client this way.

The term is 'cold calling' and it's a pretty standard thing for most sales people to do. It sucks and it takes a lot of effort but it does pay off sometimes.

The tricky part for freelancers doing this is that most developers don't have that sales type mentality. It has worked for me in the past but it's definitely something I've recognized at not being good at

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#214
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skilled Indian labour is also outbid by the unskilled Indian labour.

s/Indian//g The only reason why its Indian right now is because British occupation taught them English. It also doesn't hurt that they have the second most populous country in the world. And I know its anecdote, but I've met a number of fakers here in the US. Nothing special or "Indian-like" that makes lying about your abilities. Then again around 08 I considered padding and lying about my resume. Nothing I couldnt d…

Who said anything about lying?

It's Indian because they speak English, they're rapidly getting more online, and they have low cost of living.

Skilled Indian tech workers can outbid skilled and unskilled Western workers, but unskilled Indian workers are abundant enough to outbid everyone else.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#215
What this story and the comments here tell me is that the market for a developer focused contractbid site is ripe for competition.

There are only a few well known branded marketplaces in the industry, and they all seem to be quite poor in the eyes of skilled developers.

Maybe there is a continuous decline towards the bottom after a marketplace becomes a certain size, but I wish that there were more options to find contracts as a developer without onerous contracts which strip skilled people of their rights.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#216

All of those "freelancer" websites are scams. Freelancing is about not working for other men. It's about being your own boss. Those websites are not really freelancing, they're temp agencies hiring out short term contract work. That is not freelancing. Those websites all share specific qualities: The salaries are too low, the service quality is poor, and you'll be outbid by unskilled indian labor 90% of the time. Put…

Your comment is unfair. These websites are not scams. A couple of years ago I was looking for 10-15h/week gigs and using one of competitors of freelancer.com proved to work for me. Was it annoying to bid for gigs? Yes. Was the quality of their service low? Yeah, I'd say so. Were salaries low? For someone coming from Eastern Europe - not at all. On top of that, I always got money on time, which is not always the case…

"I always got money on time, which is not always the case if you have a direct client."

This depends on how you charge your clients. If you charge them up-front, you will always get paid on time.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#217
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, in my opinion as a software development freelancer marketing and sales is a key part of your business. That is 100% your opinion. It is far from a rule that you should expect others to adhere to, especially given that there are tons of services out there that promise to remove that need. It's almost as if different people design, build and execute their lives differently, using different values. You're get…

In what universe is marketing and sales not a key element of a business? That's like saying Samsung doesn't have to put effort into marketing and sales just because it's important for Apple. Sales and marketing IS a universal truth in business. Try telling shareholders/stakeholders that it's not. That a business sells software is irrelevant. That a business is run by one person is irrelevant. Outsourcing your marketi…

(First, you should know I'm playing devil's advocate. I run a startup, and of course I agree with you about sales and marketing. See [1] for my thoughts on this)

> That a business is run by one person is irrelevant.

I disagree with you here. In your system, there is a binary designation for individuals: either you are an individual employee, you have given up a large part of your freedom in exchange for the security of being gainfully employed; or you are a freelancer, and therefore no different from a single-person software development business, and are 100% exposed, to the same degree corporations are held (or lesser, see 'bailouts'), to the conditions of free market economy.

But of course this isn't, shouldn't and can't be binary. There currently exists millions of people somewhere in the middle of this spectrum right now, millions of counterexamples to this story, of people who lived entire lives as freelancers working through an agency like upwork or freelancer. They're here, they exist, they're humans just like you and I.

Not wanting to be responsible for all aspects of business is exactly why they go to places like freelancer.com, upwork, Uber, taskrabbit, etc.

Victim blamers are basically telling that person that they didn't "do their life good enough" and they don't deserve a social safety net, and that somehow they "had it coming" and "deserved to get screwed" because they didn't share your definition of a what a freelancer should be. They behaved too much like an individual and not enough like a business, so they got what they deserved. Despite the millions of people who aren't economically efficient yet hoisted up by the social safety net, for instance any union member, anyone on social security or welfare, anyone on food stamps, in government housing, anyone who benefits from subsidies, etc.

But let's pick on this one particular guy who deserved to have his life ruined by a customer service rep with a grudge because he dared to think he could get away with being a simple person - an individual human, not a business - with the freedom to work 25 hours a week because he got sick a year prior. Fuck that guy.

I am taking this position to an absurd degree, but to illustrate my point, here's what's really at the core of the victim-blaming position: "You're a freelancer who didn't want to be responsible for sales and marketing, so that you could just lead a straightforward technical life without the rigid constraints of being a full time employeee? Fuck you, you deserved to get screwed over for not treating your life like a business, like the rest of us!"

I think this is one of those strange ways in which capitalism has affected our worldview. I do consider myself a capitalist, but I have to admit that the idea of expecting individuals to behave as businesses would doesn't sit right with me.

At the end of the day, a customer service representative with a grudge (allegedly) had the power to hold earnings back from the person who earned them. That would bankrupt a business too, if it happened at the wrong time or under the right circumstances. Your bank refusing to deposit your checks for 2 months would wreak havok on like 70% of Americans' lives! We are all dependent on others in so many ways that we can't pick on this guy for also being dependent.

Instead, let's call out the actual bad actor here. And since freelancer.com is the actual business in the story, shouldn't we expect them to be accountable to free market forces, ie a bunch of pissed off developers asking for more accountability?

[1] https://burakkanber.com/blog/startup-advice-dont-overinvest-...

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#218
post #79
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should the number be based on living costs? Because that's basically the whole point of globalisation. Both parties benefit, I don't see what the problem is.

Geographic location is a rather arbitrary criteria for wage discrimination especially doing remote work [1]. I would not call the opportunity to be exploited a benefit exactly, even though I admit the alternatives can be worse. [1] https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...

There is nothing arbitrary about it - different geographical regions have different living costs and different market rates.

I've worked with many Indian devs over the past 10 years or so, and have become good friends with a few. One of those is freelancing for US and EU clients - he is earning far more than he would be paid by a local company, and gets to choose which jobs he takes on, as well as his working hours.

He is of course very happy with this, and very far from being 'exploited'.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#219
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should the number be based on living costs? Because that's basically the whole point of globalisation. Both parties benefit, I don't see what the problem is.

Are you living in India and working for that money, by a chance?

No, I'm from the UK.

I have worked with many Indian and Chinese devs on the past, so I have some knowledge of the outsourcing industry.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#220
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your article doesn't mention how much you paid them. If you are paying someone 5$ per hour, you can't expect much. edit: you mention the prices in the comments, so here they are for anyone curious: Node.js port 155 USD, Android port 789 USD, Website theme 300 USD. It is not slave wages considering the living costs in the respective countries. (sic!) >Node.js port 155 USD This is good for what, 1 hour of work? Pay pea…

considering the living costs in the respective countries Trying to shift the blame to the market is still discrimination in my book.

Market rates seem very relevant to me. People with the same skills but living in different geographical regions are of course willing to work for differing amounts.
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