The Great College Loan Swindle • Hacker News Board

Re: The Great College Loan Swindle

#51

Post by watwut » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 4:35 PM UTC

Overtonwindow wrote: post #15

Most scorn of universities and loan programs never seem to address a serious problem: Students taking on debt to fund degrees with little market value, or few job prospects. Racking up $100k to get an interdisciplinary degree in women and gender studies might sound awesome, but not at the cost of a school like NYU.[0] I think schools should be required to press upon students prior to taking out these loans honest and…

Interdisciplinary degree in women and gender studies are a minisculle percentage of all degrees out there. So is antropology.

If you want to make the argument that students are mostly picking wrong degrees, make it with one that is actually prevalent. Not the one that is fashionable among rich kids you personally despise.

Re: The Great College Loan Swindle

#52

Post by ams6110 » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 4:38 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #12

rayiner wrote: post #6

It’s interesting that the real perpetrators don’t get much of Taibbi’s scorn. The loan industry are just opportunists, and for the most part students loans have been taken over by the government anyway. The real criminals here are teachers, parents, and employers, who have created a culture where people are compelled to get completely unnecessary higher education. Here, you need a college degree to be an administrati…

Quoting the article: "Going to college doesn't guarantee a good job, far from it, but the data show that not going dooms most young people to an increasingly shallow pool of the very crappiest, lowest-paying jobs. There's a lot of stick, but not much carrot, in the education game. [...] the squeeze on the un-degreed grows tighter, increasing further that original negative incentive: Don't go to college, and you'll be…

It's still possible to make a good living in a skilled trade. Welder, electrician, pipe fitter, etc. Especially if you're entrepreneurial and can start your own business after getting some experience. It requires education and hard work but not college.

Re: The Great College Loan Swindle

#53

Post by nnfy » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 4:41 PM UTC

How does anyone expect high school graduates to make responsible decisions regarding loans and choice of major when the overwhelming majority of his grads exit highschool financially illiterate, with the nonsensical idea that any college degree is good enough?

How many times have you heard the expression "do what you love, and the money will come?"

The culture in the U.S. is in dire need of a return to merit, as well as drastic changes to our education system; and, no, the answer is not more funding.

Also I believe that government aid should be restricted to degrees with a minimum relative ROI. Education for the sake of culture is no longer useful when you have an increasingly incompetent workforce.

Re: The Great College Loan Swindle

#54

Post by sanderjd » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 4:45 PM UTC

wolfgke wrote: post #47

bunderbunder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parents may be more experienced, but they are, for the most part, just as naive. They grew up in a world where a bachelor's degree - any bachelor's degree - virtually guaranteed at least a middle class lifestyle, if not an upper middle class one. Many of them can't fathom the idea of graduating from college and then not being able to find a job that pays a living wage. Especially the ~2/3 of them who don't hold b…

> Many of them can't fathom the idea of graduating from college and then not being able to find a job that pays a living wage. It is not only about finding a job (I believe with a "sensible" degree you will always find one), but about finding a job that pays well enough so that beside the costs of living (which are enormous in some regions) also the college debts can be paid back in a reasonable time.

There is no workable definition of "sensible" here. A number of my friends graduated with journalism degrees in 2007. They couldn't find jobs in journalism. This probably seems obvious to you now, that journalism is not a "sensible" degree, but in 2002-2004 when we were choosing schools and degrees, every major city had two or more competing newspapers with healthy entry level hiring. The world changed. That happens. It is happening to some set of degrees right now, but we don't yet know what they are. Maybe computer science degrees will not be "sensible" in 2021.

My point is just that a solution to this problem that requires teenagers and their parents to accurately predict the future of a complex society is not actually a solution at all.

Re: The Great College Loan Swindle

#55

Post by johnnyb9 » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

How is this the fault of banks? Isn't the federal government the largest underwriter of loans these days?

Re: The Great College Loan Swindle

#56

Post by EliRivers » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #48

For kids preparing for college lucky enough to read these comments, and parents with kids preparing to go to college, consider this advice: 1. Always go in-state public funded college and university, it's much, much cheaper. In-state meaning the state the student is currently a resident. 2. If you must go out of state, make sure the student registers as a state resident after their first year (most states require a y…

8. Consider studying somewhere with relatively miniscule tuition fees. Parts of Europe, for example. There are universities teaching in English and charging a couple of thousand Euros a term, or even less.

I sometimes think about taking a year or two off to do that just for the fun of it.

Re: The Great College Loan Swindle

#57

Post by nickpeterson » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

imsofuture wrote: post #45

empath75 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the colleges should have some skin in the game and be at least partially on the hook if the loan defaults. That should prevent some of the completely egregious price gouging.

This is really the only path forward: make student debt dischargable. Yes, it will make less people go to college, but too many people going to college is clearly one of the root causes of cyclical skyrocketing costs and increased borrowing.

I agree with this. I really think most people are better off being hired and trained on-site for their careers. Students who show tremendous promise make more sense to attend a university, and that should just be federally funded.

Re: The Great College Loan Swindle

#58

Post by Maarten88 » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

I am always amazed at the level of acceptance for these types of injustice there is in the US. Even here, most discussion is about the economics of college degrees, and how to deal with it on an individual level.

While the problem, it seems to me, is entirely one of political choice and justice, and the current situation seems very unfair. Young people from poorer backgrounds seem to be destined for slavery for a large part of their lives, unless they get extremely lucky.

People argue: but his degree is not worth it. On a meta-level that is simply impossible: the guy is a teacher, by definition in his lifetime he will produce much more to society than his education cost. If he can't reasonably pay of his loans the system cannot be fair. He was shortchanged and then punished for it.

Also it seems strange that 10 years after default he still has to pay rehabilitation and his debt is still growing. Is nobody in the US protecting people like him? I know in a situation like that where I live (NL) municipality instances will be all over you and your live will suck for 3 years, but after that your debt will be gone and you can start over.

Re: The Great College Loan Swindle

#59

Post by humanrebar » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

nickpeterson wrote: post #57

imsofuture wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really the only path forward: make student debt dischargable. Yes, it will make less people go to college, but too many people going to college is clearly one of the root causes of cyclical skyrocketing costs and increased borrowing.

I agree with this. I really think most people are better off being hired and trained on-site for their careers. Students who show tremendous promise make more sense to attend a university, and that should just be federally funded.

> ...that should just be federally funded.

Why?

Re: The Great College Loan Swindle

#60

Post by b4lancesh33t » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 5:14 PM UTC

wolfgke wrote: post #46

hkmurakami wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this is why you have Asian immigrant parents insisting that the only acceptable areas of study are premed, prelaw, and (more recently) engineering. Some will refuse to pay for tuition unless their children agree. (I think there's a famous anecdote by Bobby Jindal where his father told him that he could be anything he wanted to be -- any kind of doctor that is) Heavy-handed? Yes. Effective? Also yes.

This is also the kind of environment that I am used to. Even though university education is mostly free in Germany, there are still costs of living etc. Thus there exist quite some children whose parents are quite hesitant to pay for the education of them if they don't agree with the degree course that the child chooses - even though by law they are typically required to pay.

Parents are required to support their children into their adulthood in Germany? That doesn't sound likely, but then, I'm not German.

Edit: found a reference that says parents must support children until they are 21 or have a profession to support themselves (presumably whichever is sooner -- I hope!).