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The Disappearing American Grad Student

nytimes.com

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Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#41

Post by dodigitty32 »

noobermin wrote: post #2

The article misses something I think makes part of it: grad school is a ticket to establishing some level of connection in the US for foreigners, and some use it as a spring board to getting a job in the US. They need this because a graduate degree actually is losing its value given the poor job market for PhDs. The prospects of a job after graduate school are diminishing the closer you get to a PhD; it just makes le…

The latest fad among most of the engineering graduates in India is going for an M.S degree, as you said most of them go to US not for the top quality education but mostly as an entry to the job market there. In that case M.S makes the most sense instead of phd, because if you are anyways going for a job might as well finish the most basic requirement and go job hunting. The banks here are happy to offer loans, which when compared to the higher salaries in US are easily payable in 2-3 years.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#42

Post by umeshunni »

dodigitty32 wrote: post #41
noobermin wrote: post #2

The article misses something I think makes part of it: grad school is a ticket to establishing some level of connection in the US for foreigners, and some use it as a spring board to getting a job in the US. They need this because a graduate degree actually is losing its value given the poor job market for PhDs. The prospects of a job after graduate school are diminishing the closer you get to a PhD; it just makes le…

The latest fad among most of the engineering graduates in India is going for an M.S degree, as you said most of them go to US not for the top quality education but mostly as an entry to the job market there. In that case M.S makes the most sense instead of phd, because if you are anyways going for a job might as well finish the most basic requirement and go job hunting. The banks here are happy to offer loans, which…

If by latest fad, you mean since the 90s, then yes.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#43

Post by aaron-lebo »

tanilama wrote: post #40

Grad school for Americans is not a good investment, except maybe MBA, but that should belong to its own category. Often too short, less than 2 years, not really enough time for decent research, yet expensive, the chance of getting sponsorship is slim. Grad school in US, thus is made for foreign students to get their foot on this country. It has a few attractions: It is short. Cost less than Bachelor Degree. It offers…

If you look at it from a purely economics perspective, sure. But many grad programs are not that expensive. It's hard to overestimate how valuable it is to get the grad class experience (much smaller classes, direct interaction and discussion with world experts in their fields, and really interesting discussions/viewpoints due to those foreign students). There's no learning experience quite like it.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#44

Post by tanilama »

meric wrote: post #24
aaron-lebo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure you can compare them so directly. $800 is an unobtainable sum (?) for 1 billion Chinese/Indians. I'd also wonder about the difference in quality between UC Berkeley and a lot of those colleges. They are probably very good but US colleges tend to dominate world rankings (partially why everyone goes to them). If outsiders are willing to spend money in your schools, what happens to prices? I'm also unsure about…

$800 is about the monthly salary for so many Chinese I’m finding it hard to think it is unobtainable.

Can confirm, 800 dollars is nothing for average Chinese family, consider how highly the value education. The money they send their kids to cramp school for college entrance exam can easily top that. The bigger question here, is how to earn to ticket to get into top schools.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#45

Post by tanilama »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #43
tanilama wrote: post #40

Grad school for Americans is not a good investment, except maybe MBA, but that should belong to its own category. Often too short, less than 2 years, not really enough time for decent research, yet expensive, the chance of getting sponsorship is slim. Grad school in US, thus is made for foreign students to get their foot on this country. It has a few attractions: It is short. Cost less than Bachelor Degree. It offers…

If you look at it from a purely economics perspective, sure. But many grad programs are not that expensive. It's hard to overestimate how valuable it is to get the grad class experience (much smaller classes, direct interaction and discussion with world experts in their fields, and really interesting discussions/viewpoints due to those foreign students). There's no learning experience quite like it.

Those programs, with the mentioned quality would not be cheap. But that might be true for US citizens, because usually the school charges less from them. I think I missed somewhat the definition of the grad school here. Majority of the grad students come here for Masters not PhDs, and for the former, the stuff you mentioned, like smaller classes, interaction with professors cannot really be taken for granted, and from my anecdotal experience, it is not true.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#46

Post by s0rce »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #43
tanilama wrote: post #40

Grad school for Americans is not a good investment, except maybe MBA, but that should belong to its own category. Often too short, less than 2 years, not really enough time for decent research, yet expensive, the chance of getting sponsorship is slim. Grad school in US, thus is made for foreign students to get their foot on this country. It has a few attractions: It is short. Cost less than Bachelor Degree. It offers…

If you look at it from a purely economics perspective, sure. But many grad programs are not that expensive. It's hard to overestimate how valuable it is to get the grad class experience (much smaller classes, direct interaction and discussion with world experts in their fields, and really interesting discussions/viewpoints due to those foreign students). There's no learning experience quite like it.

I'd say my experience at a top school in a STEM PhD was the opposite, classes were largely useless, often superficial and the priority was clearly to do independent research.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#47

Post by s0rce »

tyoma wrote: post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

Where were you 10 years ago. Well, I guess I was "passionate about learning and advancing human knowledge" but that didn't turn out to be all that practical.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#48

Post by aaron-lebo »

tanilama wrote: post #45
aaron-lebo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at it from a purely economics perspective, sure. But many grad programs are not that expensive. It's hard to overestimate how valuable it is to get the grad class experience (much smaller classes, direct interaction and discussion with world experts in their fields, and really interesting discussions/viewpoints due to those foreign students). There's no learning experience quite like it.

Those programs, with the mentioned quality would not be cheap. But that might be true for US citizens, because usually the school charges less from them. I think I missed somewhat the definition of the grad school here. Majority of the grad students come here for Masters not PhDs, and for the former, the stuff you mentioned, like smaller classes, interaction with professors cannot really be taken for granted, and fro…

The stuff I mentioned was true for both masters students and PhDs (they were in the same classes), but it may vary by field.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#49

Post by watwut »

fellellor wrote: post #32
aaron-lebo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure you can compare them so directly. $800 is an unobtainable sum (?) for 1 billion Chinese/Indians. I'd also wonder about the difference in quality between UC Berkeley and a lot of those colleges. They are probably very good but US colleges tend to dominate world rankings (partially why everyone goes to them). If outsiders are willing to spend money in your schools, what happens to prices? I'm also unsure about…

800$ is a very big sum for a lot of my countrymen. Also it is true that a lot of Indian schools operate with very few resources, that would be required to appropriately educate all the students they serve. And this makes them noncompetitive in international university rankings. And to be frank it is not in our interest to pander to the rankings, because they encourage expenditure of a large amount of resources to tra…

" it is not in our interest to pander to the rankings, because they encourage expenditure of a large amount of resources to train a few people "

What do you mean by that?

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#50

Post by screye »

kristopolous wrote: post #16

They make a single mention of what could be a significant contributing factor; student debt. A quick google search for India and China show that many of their top public universities charge ~$300 and ~$800/year while UC Berkeley is over $14,000. After 4 years, with on-campus housing the first year, the Berkeley student owes about $72,000 while the Indian student owes $1,200. As far as the income differences between t…

I think I should give you direct values, instead of simple speculation. I am masters student in one of the US citizens, and am being funded by my parents savings, so this is all very relevant.

I grew up in an above middle class Indian household with an income of about $10,000 a year. My parents lived very frugally (I lived in possibly the highest Indian COL area) and my parents started saving early. Over about 25 years, my parents have managed to save about $80k, which they are fully using to fund my Masters.

Funding your child's masters is a huge risk to an Indian parent. The deal is that I fund my brother's masters and take care of my parents after their retirement. Should I bail after my Masters, that would leave my whole family in financial ruin. At the same time, the blind trust between family is one thing that I think helps Indians manage debt better than Americans where family members usually manage finances independently. (for better or for worse) Now most Indians aren't above middle class or frugal/economically aware to start saving at the rate my parents did. Loans at 10-15% interest rate are very common.

If you look at the odds in this sense, it is absolutely vital that an Indian gets a job in the US after graduation. The person might not settle there, but they would usually work there for at least 5 years to pay off their debts or responsibilities. I am fortunate enough to be in a well ranked university with generally decent career prospects at the end of my Masters (sadly no funding). But, if Trump were to change immigration and h1B policies the ones at less prestigious places would possibly have their lives overturned. If such a change does happen, I hope it does not retroactively affect those already in the US and rather is applied to those who will be coming. (so students can avoid US as an expensive destination for higher studies, all together)

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