Why Do We Still Commute? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#201

Post by bluGill » Fri, Nov 03, 2017, 2:42 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #107

twoquestions wrote: post #98

We commute because businesses can push off the cost of commuting to their employees. I'd personally be in favor of a "congestion tax" or somesuch for companies that force their employees to come in rather than work remotely. Commuting takes up energy and resources, and the congestion incurs costs on third parties (car accidents, higher gas prices, and the like). While it's debatable whether remote works for businesse…

I've thought about this in the past. What if companies had to pay for the time you spend commuting? They'd have an incentive to hire people as close as possible, and support local policies that make it easier to live closer to work. On the other hand, employees would have an incentive to try to stretch out their commute as much as possible, to get extra pay for time "not working". I don't know how rampant that would…

In addition to the other negatives, there is also personal life considerations. Most people have a significant other who they want to live with long term, who also works. This throws a bunch of complications into the picture that I can't quite figure out.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#202

Post by bluGill » Fri, Nov 03, 2017, 2:44 PM UTC

dasmoth wrote: post #95

ransom1538 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Working remotely requires the participants to be much more communicative because in such a setting communication for the most part doesn't just happen serendipitously, you have to work to make it happen. " Yes. Having managed remote teams and being a remote dev, it's all about response time . If someone slacks you, the response should be as quick as if it were verbal in the office. If it takes 2 hours to get a respo…

I'm going to disagree here. It's entirely possible to work effectively with others via mostly-asynchronous communication. Open source projects, as you point out, can be a pretty good example of this. I'd further argue that for some (I suspect many...) people work much better when they can have long stints of focus without fear of interruptions. Two-minute responses on Slack absolutely is a model that can work, and pe…

Open source projects work that way because we have to, not because we want to. Large projects have semi-regular meetups/sprints where they can all get together face to face. Small one muddle through and try to prevent the problems not meeting face to face causes.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#203

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, Nov 03, 2017, 2:44 PM UTC

ataturk wrote: post #123

twoquestions wrote: post #98

We commute because businesses can push off the cost of commuting to their employees. I'd personally be in favor of a "congestion tax" or somesuch for companies that force their employees to come in rather than work remotely. Commuting takes up energy and resources, and the congestion incurs costs on third parties (car accidents, higher gas prices, and the like). While it's debatable whether remote works for businesse…

Something has to happen--my commute is only 11 miles but it often takes 40 minutes because of a stupid bridge that has had every social engineering plot applied to it to no avail (HOV lanes with pay-to-use transponders being the latest fashion and cops to enforce the rules slowing everyone else down). My career has suffered because I have never wanted the stress of a long commute nor could I afford the real estate pr…

>a stupid bridge that has had every social engineering plot applied to it to no avail (HOV lanes with pay-to-use transponders being the latest fashion and cops to enforce the rules slowing everyone else down).

Too bad just paying poor people not to use the bridge isn't politically correct.

It would be a heck of a lot more efficient than combining a bunch of disincentives that affect the lower classes.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#204

Post by bluGill » Fri, Nov 03, 2017, 2:47 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #31

BjoernKW wrote: post #14

I think that the 'importance of face-to-face interaction' argument is a helplessly contrived one, an attempt to avoid the elephant in the room. There are plenty of examples that show that working remotely without daily face-to-face interaction can work very well. What's markedly different about environments that successfully adopted remote work are aspects like: - a lack of cargo cult work organisation and office pol…

Right, except the elephant in the room isn't laziness or the value of face to face interaction, it's trust. The driver of this lack of trust is the rise of managers (e.g. MBAs) who have limited expertise in the fields which they manage. For jobs where there are measures of performance that are accurate and not gameable (e.g. certain call center workers) and/or it is a job executives probably reckon that they could do…

The best managers are the ones who know they don't know how to do your job so they get out of your way. The worst are those who don't know how to do your job and get in the way. Those who know how to do your job at least don't get in the way when they help.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#205

Post by ryandrake » Fri, Nov 03, 2017, 2:48 PM UTC

maxsilver wrote: post #163

imgabe wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought about this in the past. What if companies had to pay for the time you spend commuting? They'd have an incentive to hire people as close as possible, and support local policies that make it easier to live closer to work. On the other hand, employees would have an incentive to try to stretch out their commute as much as possible, to get extra pay for time "not working". I don't know how rampant that would…

> What if companies had to pay for the time you spend commuting? They'd have an incentive to hire people as close as possible, and support local policies that make it easier to live closer to work. I don't know. I worry that would immediately become a major form of discrimination -- it would inherently put anyone who was poor/middle-class or anyone with any sort of family/children at a huge employment disadvantage. L…

Yea as someone who has a 2+ hour commute each way, such a policy would doom me to unemployment unless I was willing to take a huge loan and live closer to where the employers are. Good intentions, but bad idea.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#206

Post by rpazyaquian » Fri, Nov 03, 2017, 2:52 PM UTC

tossaway1 wrote: post #55

blunte wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe your "commute" constitutes a commute in the sense of what this article is about. Your commute is just a walk. People traveling for 30-90 (or more!) minutes to and from work, particularly the ones driving in traffic, are the commuters. And the ones I know that fall into that category hate it. Good for you that you have such a nice situation, though!

I commute 60 minutes each way (give or take depending on traffic). I wish the commute was shorter but I personally wouldn't work from home regularly even though I technically could. Between a chatty wife, active kids, and unfinished projects around the house, I don't have the willpower or ability to avoid distractions at home. I'm more productive going into work even if you factor in the time spent driving. Plus, my…

You have options here. You can set aside a room as your quiet office, you can find a cafe or rent a coworking space to work in...it doesn't necessitate commuting 45 minutes into an office to solve.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#207

Post by glifchits » Fri, Nov 03, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

mbrock wrote: post #152

Seems to me that this has a pretty intimate relation to the question of the "nature of the firm." Why do we work in firms rather than as independent contractors making contracts with each other? Why do we gather in rooms every day instead of working independently and emailing each other with low frequency asynchronous requests? I don't really understand firms, to be honest... I suspect it has way more to do with inst…

That's a great point, and the nature of the firm is something worth thinking about especially in this context.

However, the "firm" structure creates lots of efficiencies. Individual contracts are costly to enforce and having one type of contract (the employee contract) allows hiring to scale a lot better. Employees (and usually not contractors) are exclusive to an employer which is also desirable for employers. Employees also get benefits, which a lot of people like.

There's also efficiencies gained by people working in the same room. Any type of creative work for example can benefit greatly from a quick in-person chat, or just bouncing a quick idea off of your colleagues. This is even true for some developers (myself included). Some types of work truly rely on communication between colleagues, and that would be really hindered by latency issues due to low frequency async communication. Coordination is also very important and much harder to do with async communication.

Tribalism is an interesting lens, and maybe it started out that way, but the firm is certainly valuable.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#208

Post by saas_co_de » Fri, Nov 03, 2017, 2:54 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #81

I worked from home for five years, and just this week started back into a job where I commute to an office. I don't love the commute, but I also don't agree that working from home is a universally better answer for me on a personal level. Everyone knows the benefits of working from home, but there are downsides as well. Fixable downsides, but they exist nonetheless -- it is easy to become a hermit. Easy to over-work.…

The vast majority of time spent by office employees is socializing and non-productive ritual work.

Since the purpose of going to the office is not to do actual work being able to work from home has not removed the need for the office.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#209

Post by rpazyaquian » Fri, Nov 03, 2017, 2:55 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #111

cupofjoakim wrote: post #10

I think working from home works perfectly if you know exactly what to fill your workday with or if you're in a position where you can make decisions smoothly. If you're not sure what's expected of you or your team has poor communication, remote work seems to lead to some issues, such as being unsure if you're doing enough, feeling more guilty about slacking (even if a break is needed) and an increased amount of block…

Those issues exist even in a physical office.

I agree. Uncertainty and lack of prioritization and focus is independent of location.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#210

Post by asteli » Fri, Nov 03, 2017, 2:57 PM UTC

maxsilver wrote: post #163

imgabe wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought about this in the past. What if companies had to pay for the time you spend commuting? They'd have an incentive to hire people as close as possible, and support local policies that make it easier to live closer to work. On the other hand, employees would have an incentive to try to stretch out their commute as much as possible, to get extra pay for time "not working". I don't know how rampant that would…

> What if companies had to pay for the time you spend commuting? They'd have an incentive to hire people as close as possible, and support local policies that make it easier to live closer to work. I don't know. I worry that would immediately become a major form of discrimination -- it would inherently put anyone who was poor/middle-class or anyone with any sort of family/children at a huge employment disadvantage. L…

I don't think we should take it for granted that it's prohibitively expensive to live in cities. That may be the state of metro areas in North America right now (SF, NYC, Vancouver) but historically this isn't a constant.

Obviously enough economic incentive exists to convince people to spend the time and effort to commute, but if city centers were more affordable to live in, many fewer would choose to live so far away from work. Myself included.