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A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

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Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#71

Luddite lite. Tech is one of the only sources of growth in our stagnating economy and is responsible for humanity moving past a subsistence standard of living, but leave it to a well-paid actor sitting in a comfortable air-conditioned room during the most prosperous period ever in the history of humanity to whine about its downsides.

He's not going around destroying looms to protect jobs. He's not even complaining about the tech per se - just about the lack of any ethical consideration in some areas of the industry.

The problem is not unique to SV or to tech world. This is just the good old phenomenon of "not caring about ethics makes you better at making money". The market does not care either, it just promotes people and companies who are good at making money. Complaining is one form of creating back pressure, of making it more difficult for unethical actors to make money. We desperately need more of that back pressure.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#72
post #25

I got into a conversation once that I think frames this well. We had WILDLY different views on whether going to Mars was a good idea (like, violently polar opposite views). The strength of our disagreement surprised me. I was arguing that we should “race to Mars”, mainly because the value of having a second planet dramatically increases the odds of survival for our the human race, as a whole. Thus Mars is one of the…

Yeah, I don't see how you can put a good spin on saying that you don't care if 95% of humanity dies. Treating people equally means it only solves 5% of the problem. Probably far less than that. It rounds to zero.

To be fair, "5% rounds, rounds to 0" is still strictly more than 0, which was what the other person proposed.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#73
post #25

I got into a conversation once that I think frames this well. We had WILDLY different views on whether going to Mars was a good idea (like, violently polar opposite views). The strength of our disagreement surprised me. I was arguing that we should “race to Mars”, mainly because the value of having a second planet dramatically increases the odds of survival for our the human race, as a whole. Thus Mars is one of the…

I'm with you, but I feel you still have a crush on startup ecosystem. I used to have it too, ~5 years ago. What I've learned since then is, the kind of idealistic forward-looking people you seek do not form the majority of startups.

Technology makes shitloads of money now. This attracted all kinds of people - the regular ones just looking to live their lives in comfort; the greedy assholes looking to become rich by scamming (er, advertising to) others or profiting off offloading externalities on the society. There are more of them than idealists. For each "actually help the world" startup, you have 10 "get $$$ through screwing the society" ones, and 50 "build things people will buy" ones.

Also, I feel most idealists have realized by now that startups are not necessarily a good vehicle for change, because by their nature, you trade control for money. Which means that even if you have good intentions and a great long-term idea, your investors may not share it, they need their shorter-term profits, and they just gave you money for control, so you'd better do what they want.

All in all, do seek out people who want to actually help everyone, instead of forever living in the world of tribalism and petty soap-operish nonproblems. But do not thing startups are where they gather - startups are just another flavour of mundane business world, no matter what the copy on their webistes says.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Every software engineer I’ve worked with has had a strong sense of personal values and ethics, but the organizations we work for can take actions that are at odds with these. I’d like to highlight a few of the key challenges you’ll face and provide feedback for living your personal values. Most importantly, it’s critical that you think about the impact of your work and consciously set your personal values in advance…

Nuclear missiles, land mines, biological weapons, torture research, etc has all been carried out by willing and often motivated engineers or doctors. I'm skeptical something that hasn't worked in other fields is going to fix our woes in software.

Probably because it was interesting and cutting edge, and so they rationalized it to themselves, like humans are so good at doing.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#75

The heart of the problem is that popular communication networks are centralized and unencrypted.

Good protocols don't cure bad ethics. Mind: I would like to see decentralisation and better encryption protections, generally, but those by themselves won't solve the problem (you still need to address ethics, rights, and power imbalances), and still leave certain of present attacks in place. David Gerard, author of Attack of the 50 Foot Blockchain , makes the exceedingly good point in an FT interview, that Bitcoin a…

Not sure if the technology itself attacks interpersonal trust - but I do see a lot work in tech being done exactly towards that. In particular, crypto folks from the blockchain sphere do their damnest to invent ways in which you don't have to trust anybody to do things. I do not feel it's a good idea, at least not for basing society and its infrastructure on that.

The core of my argument would be: trust is something we're good at, as humans. It's efficient, and it's flexible. By flexibility I mean that it handles new/weird situations well. Trustless solutions, on the other hand, burn a lot of compute to replace the need to trust another person, and they do not handle corner cases in any way.

A similar thing is bureaucracy - it exists as a way to reduce dependence on trust, at a serious loss of inefficiency. Frankly, I'd argue that today's bureaucracies are so inefficient that without hidden trust acting as a grease on the wheels, they'd grind to a complete halt. They're also inflexible, and they're usually only saved - again - through trust that leaves room for individual bureaucrats to "cheat the system" here and there.

All in all, I feel the problem is with scale of societies we're trying to create. When it was just 100 people in your village tribe, everyone knew everyone else, and trust-based society just worked. As we grew our societies by many orders of magnitude, we've lost the interpersonal mechanisms of establishing and maintaining trust (which includes punishing actors for breaking it). And it seems to me that instead of trying to find new mechanisms for enabling trust at scale, we're just giving up on the whole idea and replacing it with burning physical resources. This, I feel, is a wrong way to go.

(I'm probably not articulating the argument well either.)

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#76

cheap tactics to gain some press time ..

TBH it's the press who needs him more than he needs the press. If anything, I see this article as a cheap trick to write something generating pageviews and ad revenue.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#77
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most overtly political act most software engineers are likely to make is to choose GPL over BSD or vice-versa. Walk away from a cool idea for ethical reasons? Risk their salary or their safety? I'm sure such engineers must exist, but they're not among any I've ever known. Unfortunately, I am rather pessimistic. We're in this Orwellian/Huxlean dystopia for a reason.

> they're not among any I've ever known You just met one. In the mid 90s, when I was writing firmware and drivers for HIPPI[1] networking equipment, the Malaysian government bought a bunch of out hardware (indirectly), as part of a big system that was supposed to receive a bunch of TV channels from satellite, buffer it for a couple minutes on disk, and then re-broadcast the streams on local TV channels. The buffer, o…

Bravo to you for sticking with your principles. It's interesting how he was willing to keep paying you intern wages until you expressed concern.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#78
It's scary (Stanford prison experiment-like) how easy it is to convince a regular joe employee that what he's working on is "for the betterment of the world", while that statement is very very fuzzy to say the least (and as recent events have shown) where one man's Utopia is another man's surveillance state. We put waaay too much impetus on "world changing ideas" while completely ignoring the real life implications of them, as the article rightfully points out.

Reminds me of the statement that Noam Chomsky ended his recent talk at Google with (which I consider one of the nicest "burn" moments ever):

Interviewer: It's not everyday that a non-google gets to sit in a room full of people who work at google, and are s/w engineers, and are advertising experts, and are market experts in different fields. Do you have anything that you'd like to ask us? Chomsky: Why not do some of the serious things?

https://youtu.be/2C-zWrhFqpM?t=59m16s

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#80

Luddite lite. Tech is one of the only sources of growth in our stagnating economy and is responsible for humanity moving past a subsistence standard of living, but leave it to a well-paid actor sitting in a comfortable air-conditioned room during the most prosperous period ever in the history of humanity to whine about its downsides.

Keep in mind that we have it good in part because we've avoided a nuclear war so far, and the bigger environmental and climate change issues haven't impacted us yet.

In the future, we will potentially have designer viruses, weaponized nanotech and AI to concern ourselves with. So it's probably good that a few people express their worries about unethical uses of technology.

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