Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

qz.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 109 posts

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#21

Post by Jun8 »

transitorykris wrote: post #17

I love Stafford Beer's "The purpose of a system is what it does" here. It separates fact from intention when reasoning about systems. The engineers that Kumail catches offguard are (in my opinion) confused because the issues he raises are so far from their intentions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

I really like this. Mirrors Wittgenstein's "the meaning of a word is its use" maxim (see, e.g. http://www.maciejratajski.com/work/the-meaning-of-a-word-is-...) in philosophy of language.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#22

Post by nemild »

tomjen3 wrote: post #20
nemild wrote: post #18

In the vein of Kumail's critique, if it's useful to anyone, I wrote some thoughts about software engineering and ethics from my own experiences: A serial tech entrepreneur in Silicon Valley once asked me to design a “social stockade” for his financial services customers. It would lock people out of their social media accounts and tweet out/FB share to their friends when they hadn’t paid a loan. He pitched it to prosp…

I am curious as to what your issue is with the loan setup. Inn my mind out is an alternative to a traditional loan, how is that bad?

It felt like a modern day scarlet letter, instead of a innovative new way to deliver cheaper loans. There are other techniques to deliver cheaper loans, which don't lead to social ostracism (and which don't violate any social network terms of services).

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#23

Post by stale2002 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #20
nemild wrote: post #18

In the vein of Kumail's critique, if it's useful to anyone, I wrote some thoughts about software engineering and ethics from my own experiences: A serial tech entrepreneur in Silicon Valley once asked me to design a “social stockade” for his financial services customers. It would lock people out of their social media accounts and tweet out/FB share to their friends when they hadn’t paid a loan. He pitched it to prosp…

I am curious as to what your issue is with the loan setup. Inn my mind out is an alternative to a traditional loan, how is that bad?

It is bad for the same reason that 100% interest loans are bad.

They are predatory on poor people, and they trick people into accepting something when they don't really understand the consequences or "believe" them.

A person may incorrectly accept a loan like this, while being under the mistaken assumption that they aren't at risk of the consequences. Sometimes people just make bad decisions.

It is really immoral to take advantage of someone like that.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#24

Post by pdkl95 »

untog wrote: post #13
pmoriarty wrote: post #6

Corporations only worry about ethics if they think it'll affect their reputation or bottom line. Even then many of them are happy as long as there's public perception that they're acting ethically, even if in reality they're not.

Corporations, yes. But employees of those corporations, less so. As a developer making , you could have qualms about it.

Unfortunately, many engineers like to pretend their work is apolitical, but there is "No Neutral Ground in a Burning World"[1]. Everything is political, eventually; technology patently has political consequences that are large in scope, highly complex, and difficult to understand fully.

When you are implementing a new technology, please take some time to actively consider all of the potential consequences you can think of. Maybe your new tech just needs simple safety-considerations similar to power tools (dangerous, if misused). Maybe your new tech will disrupt existing structures that many people rely on; do you have a plan to handle that? Can someone easily use your new tech to undermine civil rights or basic freedoms?

Obviously we can't foresee everything, but we can at least try to consider the potential consequences to the world, society, and people outside of tech. I know it's hard to walk away from a cool idea. It's even harder to do the right thing when it risks your salary - or your safety. For better or worse, this kind of question needs to be part of the new-tech development process. As Dan Geer said[4][5] in a recent keynote, "You have not picked a career. You have picked a crusade."

[1] I strongly encourage everyone to watch this 30c3 talk[2] by Quinn Norton and Eleanor Saitta (or read the transcript[3]).

[2] https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5491_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312272...

[3] http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/no-neutral-ground-burn...

[4] http://geer.tinho.net/geer.source.27iv17.txt

[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcIiD4UUDE8

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#25

Post by dhoulb »

I got into a conversation once that I think frames this well. We had WILDLY different views on whether going to Mars was a good idea (like, violently polar opposite views). The strength of our disagreement surprised me.

I was arguing that we should “race to Mars”, mainly because the value of having a second planet dramatically increases the odds of survival for our the human race, as a whole. Thus Mars is one of the highest importance activities we could possibly be focusing on.

My friend was countering that all the rich people escaping to Mars made them not care about Earth and their fellow citizens, and was just about the most abhorant act he could think of.

He’d rather see everyone die together on Earth than a small group people live (at least it’d be fair). I’d be happy to sacrifice 95% of the humans alive today as long as some live somewhere (I’m ambivolent about who they are, I presume there’s a formula to be found?).

I think my view is more that of Silicon Valley/entrepreneur/programmer types. These people (me, etc) want the best long term outcome and will take big actions towards that, even knowing it’ll cause some short term pain.

I don’t think ‘regular’ people think like that. They generally care more about the people around them, their own pain, their tribes, their cities, etc. (But not at all about trillions of as yet unborn humans.)

I think it’s easy to label Silicon Valley as “unethical monsters” who’re out for themselves. But Assuming we’re talking about the crime of “innovation without regard for effects” (as opposed to ACTUAL rulebreaking, like theft, assault, fraud, which I assume the Valley is no worse for than anywhere else in the world), the intentions of entrepreneurs aren’t evil or unethical, they just care more about the survival of the entire race than, today’s people.

I also think a lot of hackers/builders/entrepreneurs, for all the optimism they have about growth and innovation, are simultaneously very realistic/pessimistic about all the various ways our race is fundamentally screwed, and kinda recognises they need to be more powerful and have more resources in order to do anything about that.

Startups are more about “getting us out of this fine mess were in” than money.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#26

Post by vile »

dhoulb wrote: post #25

I got into a conversation once that I think frames this well. We had WILDLY different views on whether going to Mars was a good idea (like, violently polar opposite views). The strength of our disagreement surprised me. I was arguing that we should “race to Mars”, mainly because the value of having a second planet dramatically increases the odds of survival for our the human race, as a whole. Thus Mars is one of the…

>Startups are more about “getting us out of this fine mess were in” than money.

I think this is a very naive view; novel new ways to share vapid content on the internet and unnecessarily internet-connected junk are getting nobody out of any sort of mess.

There are a few aspirational startups, but the vast majority follow The Cartman Plan: http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/5457c9ae6bb3f7d33da...

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#27

Post by skybrian »

dhoulb wrote: post #25

I got into a conversation once that I think frames this well. We had WILDLY different views on whether going to Mars was a good idea (like, violently polar opposite views). The strength of our disagreement surprised me. I was arguing that we should “race to Mars”, mainly because the value of having a second planet dramatically increases the odds of survival for our the human race, as a whole. Thus Mars is one of the…

Yeah, I don't see how you can put a good spin on saying that you don't care if 95% of humanity dies.

Treating people equally means it only solves 5% of the problem. Probably far less than that. It rounds to zero.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#28

Post by CookieMon »

stale2002 wrote: post #23
tomjen3 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious as to what your issue is with the loan setup. Inn my mind out is an alternative to a traditional loan, how is that bad?

It is bad for the same reason that 100% interest loans are bad. They are predatory on poor people, and they trick people into accepting something when they don't really understand the consequences or "believe" them. A person may incorrectly accept a loan like this, while being under the mistaken assumption that they aren't at risk of the consequences. Sometimes people just make bad decisions. It is really immoral to…

Social connections (social capital?) is also how poor people survive everyday setbacks that others would pay their way out of, a “social stockade” would be debilitating.

Debilitating your debtor IMHO seems counterproductive for getting a loan repaid. But is the harm it would cause even an unforeseen coincidence - the guy might have heard some of the studies on how crucial social connections are in poverty and gone "aha! Here's something that truly matters to them, it could be wielded as a cheap big stick in loan repayments"

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#29

Post by pmoriarty »

pdkl95 wrote: post #24
untog wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations, yes. But employees of those corporations, less so. As a developer making , you could have qualms about it.

Unfortunately, many engineers like to pretend their work is apolitical, but there is "No Neutral Ground in a Burning World"[1]. Everything is political, eventually; technology patently has political consequences that are large in scope, highly complex, and difficult to understand fully. When you are implementing a new technology, please take some time to actively consider all of the potential consequences you can thi…

The most overtly political act most software engineers are likely to make is to choose GPL over BSD or vice-versa.

Walk away from a cool idea for ethical reasons? Risk their salary or their safety? I'm sure such engineers must exist, but they're not among any I've ever known.

Unfortunately, I am rather pessimistic. We're in this Orwellian/Huxlean dystopia for a reason.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#30

Post by supernumerary »

Jun8 wrote: post #21
transitorykris wrote: post #17

I love Stafford Beer's "The purpose of a system is what it does" here. It separates fact from intention when reasoning about systems. The engineers that Kumail catches offguard are (in my opinion) confused because the issues he raises are so far from their intentions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

I really like this. Mirrors Wittgenstein's "the meaning of a word is its use" maxim (see, e.g. http://www.maciejratajski.com/work/the-meaning-of-a-word-is-... ) in philosophy of language.

I love wittgenstein and agree with your gist.

Being trite - Wittgenstein also said 'The world is all that is the case' ... a precept that a mission to mars for example certainly flexes, of course as soon as it came to pass, the meaning of 'the world' would reconfigure itself.

To the point though ... another maxim that I often find myself employing is: 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

Post reply on HN