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Bancor has lost more than half its value since June ICO

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Re: Bancor has lost more than half its value since June ICO

#51
I did quite a lot of research into Bancor from a non-cryptocurrency-developer perspective a few months ago (when looking at possible ways to launch a token for Matrix - c.f. https://matrix.org/blog/2017/08/22/thoughts-on-cryptocurrenc...) - and concluded that it's actually quite an interesting idea (once it finally 'clicked').

From the normal dev perspective: the idea is that it removes the concept of using a marketplace to exchange between currencies entirely; instead it replaces the exchanges with an algorithm which gives a consistent global way to calculate the FX rate at any given point. The formula used is mathematically very simple: you allocate a 'reserve' of your currency to be backed by a 'base' currency (by default, their BNT); and as folks buy and sell your currency it algorithmically defines the exchange rate relative to the base currency based on the total supply of your currency in circulation. So rather than the exchange rate being determined by the human interactions of traders, instead it's determined by a function of the current market cap - and everyone is held true to using the same function because it's part of the codebase that defines how the currency operates, running as a smart contract on the Ethereum VM. From memory, the function itself defines the FX as being proportional to the amount of token supply relative to the reserve, after applying a selectable exponential damping factor.

The code is kinda interesting, as it ends up implementing some fairly scary fixed-point exponentiation in such a way that it can run on the EVM with the reversibility and predictable rounding errors which are required for small transactions to cause tiny but 'correct' changes in the FX rate for that currency. https://github.com/bancorprotocol/contracts/blob/master/soli... has the gory details.

Now, the idea certainly does have some controversies, including:

* It requires some kind of common currency to be able to work, and Bancor positioned themselves as the common currency for that purpose (hence their ICO). That said, you could also chain together separate 'common' currencies though, or just access a Bancorified network of currencies via an old-style exchange.

* Whilst the formula used to calculate the FX seems sensible enough, it's not obvious it's the only (or optimal) solution, but it's very baked into the system. (Although the contract does have a backdoor to let it be upgraded in case of bugs or problems, which is a bit controversial in and of itself).

* It's an interesting question whether it's a feature or a bug that markets have a human function which can act emotionally/irrationally - rather than behaving 'perfectly' through the magic of a shared smart contract.

On balance, it feels like a very interesting system for managing small-scale tokens - especially ones which need liquidity and stability beyond their natural market cap. However, this is a slightly niche market which is still evolving (relative to everyone who's running around trying to do as large an ICO as possible), so it's perhaps not surprising that it's yet to take off.

(Disclaimer: I'm not working with/for Bancor, although have chatted to them a few times.)

Re: Bancor has lost more than half its value since June ICO

#52
post #49

ICOs are more akin to angel/VC rounds than IPOs - you often invest in a idea thats still not fully developed and might need 1-2 years to come out on the market. The huge difference to traditional investing is that shares/tokens are immediately tradable and small(ish) crypto investors have 0 patience to wait those 1-2 years so they often sell early and crash the price to go looking for another get-rich scheme. Thats a…

Very few ICOs do right by investors. We're one of the few offering equity positions and dividends. The law conveniently provides an excuse to them, see Tezos even outright calling it a donation! As an EJC the laws don't apply in the same way, so we directly offer shares in our startup.

Few ICOs are willing to do the ethical thing because they're just cash grabs. Hire a small team to try to make your whitepaper vision into code. If it fails and you were not too far fetch in using company funds, nothing bad will happen to you. It's disgusting.

Re: Bancor has lost more than half its value since June ICO

#53
post #34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the online gambling market is adopting bitcoin, or do you prefer cashing checks from Taiwan?

Not sure I'd equate online gambling with legitimate (legal) use case. Even still if legal for use in given location (territory) why not leverage credit card or paypal? Unless you're doing some illegal (e.g. money laundering), there's no need and zero add for cryptocurrency for gambling. I don't need a distributed ledger with block consensus and wasting power computation to carry out a merchangt transaction.

think about poker use a centralized server with closed source code shuffle the deck or use code open for all to see on the ethereum blockchain. Also more fair and transparent for auctions.

Re: Bancor has lost more than half its value since June ICO

#54
post #52
post #49

ICOs are more akin to angel/VC rounds than IPOs - you often invest in a idea thats still not fully developed and might need 1-2 years to come out on the market. The huge difference to traditional investing is that shares/tokens are immediately tradable and small(ish) crypto investors have 0 patience to wait those 1-2 years so they often sell early and crash the price to go looking for another get-rich scheme. Thats a…

Very few ICOs do right by investors. We're one of the few offering equity positions and dividends. The law conveniently provides an excuse to them, see Tezos even outright calling it a donation! As an EJC the laws don't apply in the same way, so we directly offer shares in our startup. Few ICOs are willing to do the ethical thing because they're just cash grabs. Hire a small team to try to make your whitepaper vision…

You could say the same thing about "traditional" startups though - investors often invest just based on the combination of the idea, founders/team and maybe an early prototype. If the startup fails - nothing "bad" will happen to you either. Shares in a startup thats not publicly tradable don't really offer you that much security.

Unless you've committed fraud - but - I've been following the ICO market closely for the past 6 months and I can't remember any of the larger ICOs that were outright scams. Many people and smaller projects/websites will of course try to scam you online - but you should always do your own research and due diligence still applies.

I'm not sure I'd agree that "very few ICOs do right by their investors". It depends what you mean - there have been many successful projects out there that made people money. But if you mean "flipping" i.e. buying into a ICO just to try and sell it quickly for profit - that seems more difficult these days. But it might also be due to the current BTC rally.

ICOs are of course still in wild west territory as far as regulations go - there is a reason why Tezos calls it a donation. They don't want the regulatory hurdle. In fact almost all ICOs these days force you to accept that tokens are not shares in the company and don't "officially" entitle you to anything.

Re: Bancor has lost more than half its value since June ICO

#55
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would love to hear more on legitimate use cases for blockchain (not being sarcastic) that cannot already be solved by centralized database, merkle trees and/or public key encryption.

Trustless, double-spend proof payments. Marketplaces for verifiable third party computation. Fair multiparty computation.

[deleted]

Re: Bancor has lost more than half its value since June ICO

#56
post #40
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SEC might say otherwise. There are plenty of civil and criminal options for recourse if they simply "walk away".

What's the SEC got to do with this? Bancor isn't a US company

If a company has American investors, you can expect the SEC can get involved.

Re: Bancor has lost more than half its value since June ICO

#58
post #3

What? This is like every shit coin. Tons of them tank to near zero and deflate. Anyone who thinks these coins are legitimate are fooling themselves. They are built with one core requirement, do just enough to differentiate from other coins, pump it, get out. The average person can't understand 99% of the specs of these coins, it's all speculation. The whole thing is a ponzi scheme.

Just because some ICOs can be scams is no reason to write off the entire concept as a scam.

There are reasons to write off the entire concept, though. Tokens are a stupid idea - universality is the whole point of currency. And it's pretty obvious that everybody who is promoting an ICO is doing it cause it's easy money (compared to more traditional means of raising capital), even if they are actually planning to build the product that they say they are.

As a general rule of thumb, any Ethereum contract that doesn't use an oracle is probably stupid.

Re: Bancor has lost more than half its value since June ICO

#59
post #44
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to volatility in fiat currencies? I (perhaps incorrectly) assume you live in a relatively stable and developed nation that hasn't seen hyperinflation? Should I base my views of fiat currency from things like the 79.6 billion percent hyperinflation in Zimbabwe? Neither is inherently volatile. Both can be, but it isn't a built-in trait of fiat or cryptocurrency.

Perhaps cryptocurrencies are inherently volatile. We don't know either way. In any case, there is zero empirical evidence that they aren't, given that there has not once existed a stable cryptocurrency.

USDT?

Re: Bancor has lost more than half its value since June ICO

#60
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because some ICOs can be scams is no reason to write off the entire concept as a scam.

There are reasons to write off the entire concept, though. Tokens are a stupid idea - universality is the whole point of currency. And it's pretty obvious that everybody who is promoting an ICO is doing it cause it's easy money (compared to more traditional means of raising capital), even if they are actually planning to build the product that they say they are. As a general rule of thumb, any Ethereum contract that…

Yeah, universality is the whole point of currency. That's definitely why every holiday season, millions of people buy gift cards to people's favorite stores. Please.
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