Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance • Hacker News Board

Re: Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance

#111

Post by rtx » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 5:27 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #96

martinald wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. They also have all manufacturing there. I imagine if Apple did pull out it would be so embarrassing to the Chinese govt they would close the foxconn facilities too.

I hadn’t even thought of the manufacture angle. If Apple were to pull out, even if the board didn’t fire Cook for that... would they be able to make phones? Is ANYWHERE on Earth capable of that other than China? I suppose you could buy all the parts from China and have them shipped somewhere else to be assembled but what would that do to the cost of the devices? Would anyone buy an iPhone that starts at $1500 or $200…

I think diversifying production base would all ready be in works.

Re: Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance

#112

Post by praneshp » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 5:29 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #95

criddell wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I thought. So my private information isn't really shared with anybody, is it? I mean I guess if I were to place an ad targeted to black men that speak french and you answered it, I would learn that about you.

It’s shared with anyone inside facebook who want to use it for something. I’ve never gotten the impression there are strong internal privacy controls. External companies? Perhaps if they partner with Facebook but not normal ad buyers.

> I’ve never gotten the impression there are strong internal privacy controls

At least my friends that work there claim otherwise, but obviously they are biased. But so are you, I suspect.

Re: Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance

#113

Post by MBCook » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 5:33 PM UTC

praneshp wrote: post #112

MBCook wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s shared with anyone inside facebook who want to use it for something. I’ve never gotten the impression there are strong internal privacy controls. External companies? Perhaps if they partner with Facebook but not normal ad buyers.

> I’ve never gotten the impression there are strong internal privacy controls At least my friends that work there claim otherwise, but obviously they are biased. But so are you, I suspect.

Yep, I’m very distrustful of FB.

But that’s good to hear. That’s what I would hope.

Re: Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance

#114

Post by MBCook » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 5:35 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #102

MBCook wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t do that. It’s China. It’s one of the largest markets on Earth and Apple is a public company. Cook would immediately be fired by the board. They’d put someone new in, and that someone new would comply with China’s demand. And no one would be better off. As Cook says at least Apple does the best they can and holds the line on other things like encrypting iMessage.

> Cook would immediately be fired by the board. They’d put someone new in, and that someone new would comply with China’s demand. That would indeed take courage and principles on Cook's part. If the board had courage & principles they wouldn't fire him. And if they did — they'd demonstrate what sort of men they are. > And no one would be better off. Tim Cook would have his self-respect.

I imagine a lot of stock holders would move to replace the board if the board agreed with Cook.

> Tim Cook would have his self-respect.

I agree. And I hope he’d hold the line.

But I think the people of China would be worse off. Stockholders would be worse off. Apple would be worse off, which means as an American buying heir products it might make them slightly worse for me.

Re: Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance

#115

Post by nullnilvoid » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 5:36 PM UTC

exitreturn123 wrote: post #48

I work closely with Apple so need to post anonymously. I believed everything in this until something that happened in late July this past summer. In China, their fastest-growing market, China demanded all secure messaging and VPN apps be removed from the App Store and Apple complied.[1] So privacy matters, unless it's in your fastest-growing market. I intend to discuss with Tim next time I see him. 1: https://techcru…

It is unfortunate that the Chinese government made those demands. By no means I am trying to defend the Chinese government. That said, there is a difference here. Apply was trying to comply with the laws in China (I cannot think of a single country where you can operate above the local laws). However, here in the US, it was requested by FBI, not a court order or subpoena. It is not fair to Apple or other companies by forcing them to enforce human rights while doing business. Google pulled out of China not because of human rights but because they were losing to Baidu in China market. It was more a business decision than anything else (Google spins it differently of course).

Re: Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance

#116

Post by CodeWriter23 » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

ewzimm wrote: post #103

artimaeis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're getting at but that decision has little/nothing to do with Apple's stance on privacy. * iMessage still uses end-to-end encryption for messages in China. * iPhones sold in China still utilize Secure Enclave for privacy/encryption. * Aggregate data still uses differential privacy in China. The government made a request of them which did not compromise their user's security, and they obliged. Compare t…

This also shows that if we care about the preservation of privacy, we can't depend on technology to solve the problem on its own. No matter how well-engineered software might be, it's ultimately subordiate to national and international law. A company can refuse to cooperate up to a point, but a government can always force it to either comply or cease doing business. The Verge's recent technology survey showed that at…

Perhaps The Verge would like to re-run it’s survey now, after yesterday’s rash of users being banned from Google Docs that we’re shared with them.

Re: Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance

#117

Post by FiveSquared » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 6:56 PM UTC

exitreturn123 wrote: post #48

I work closely with Apple so need to post anonymously. I believed everything in this until something that happened in late July this past summer. In China, their fastest-growing market, China demanded all secure messaging and VPN apps be removed from the App Store and Apple complied.[1] So privacy matters, unless it's in your fastest-growing market. I intend to discuss with Tim next time I see him. 1: https://techcru…

Please ask tim about the mac pro? iPad mini? Thanks!

Re: Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance

#118

Post by new299 » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 7:06 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #87

new299 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that's a business transaction. Praise would be "Thanks, Apple, for supporting privacy!" then not necessarily buying any of their products.

> To me that's a business transaction. But that doesn't make clear why you're buying their product, or which of their attitudes you want to reinforce.

You could make it explicitly clear by emailing them, or mentioning it at the time of purchase or timing your purchase with a privacy announcement.

Re: Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance

#119

Post by njarboe » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 7:09 PM UTC

ewzimm wrote: post #103

artimaeis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're getting at but that decision has little/nothing to do with Apple's stance on privacy. * iMessage still uses end-to-end encryption for messages in China. * iPhones sold in China still utilize Secure Enclave for privacy/encryption. * Aggregate data still uses differential privacy in China. The government made a request of them which did not compromise their user's security, and they obliged. Compare t…

This also shows that if we care about the preservation of privacy, we can't depend on technology to solve the problem on its own. No matter how well-engineered software might be, it's ultimately subordiate to national and international law. A company can refuse to cooperate up to a point, but a government can always force it to either comply or cease doing business. The Verge's recent technology survey showed that at…

"it's ultimately subordiate to national and international law"

That is true, but in the US a big problem is that part of the government is breaking the law with its surveillance. In that situation technology can help quite a bit. The constitution states that the government needs a warrant to search ones private papers. Encryption works great against illegal government snooping. When the intelligence agencies and Congress starts talking about requiring back doors, like the Clipper Chip or the Apple request, society can hear about it and push to keep the back doors out. Worked with the Clipper Chip at least.

Re: Forget iPhone X–Apple's Best Product Is Its Privacy Stance

#120

Post by s3r3nity » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 7:12 PM UTC

ewzimm wrote: post #103

artimaeis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're getting at but that decision has little/nothing to do with Apple's stance on privacy. * iMessage still uses end-to-end encryption for messages in China. * iPhones sold in China still utilize Secure Enclave for privacy/encryption. * Aggregate data still uses differential privacy in China. The government made a request of them which did not compromise their user's security, and they obliged. Compare t…

This also shows that if we care about the preservation of privacy, we can't depend on technology to solve the problem on its own. No matter how well-engineered software might be, it's ultimately subordiate to national and international law. A company can refuse to cooperate up to a point, but a government can always force it to either comply or cease doing business. The Verge's recent technology survey showed that at…

Yeah I tend to agree with you - if Tim Cook refused China's request and subsequently got all iPhone sales banned in China, the stock would tank and there would be chaos / folks calling for Tim to resign, etc etc.