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High-Frequency Programmers Revolt Over Pay

forbes.com

21–30 of 175 posts

Re: High-Frequency Programmers Revolt Over Pay

#21
post #8

>He says one group was generating $100,000 a day from his high-frequency trading software and paying him $150,000 a year. I'm not saying I don't want the guy to have a higher salary, but there's an implied fallacy here. It seems he should be paid relative not to how much value his code generates, but to how hard it would be to replace him.

It's non-trivial to create a tradeable strat.

If he actually created it (rather than simply implementing it for somebody), he should almost certainly be paid more than that, and would be at many firms.

Re: High-Frequency Programmers Revolt Over Pay

#22
High frequency trading is under pretty high powered scrutiny at present. I fully expect legislation implementing trade reforms that will render the practice worthless in the very near future, whether it's frequency limits or per-transaction fees/taxes.

If these guys want to spend money and time on start-ups that will likely be out of business before they come online, that's no skin off my nose. In fact, please excuse me while I laugh. These guys are basically the last players in on the ponzi scheme.

Re: High-Frequency Programmers Revolt Over Pay

#23
post #22

High frequency trading is under pretty high powered scrutiny at present. I fully expect legislation implementing trade reforms that will render the practice worthless in the very near future, whether it's frequency limits or per-transaction fees/taxes. If these guys want to spend money and time on start-ups that will likely be out of business before they come online, that's no skin off my nose. In fact, please excuse…

Nah. Not going to happen. They introduced a bunch of legislation already in congress trying to tax per per share per transaction, all got killed very quickly; offends the All-American capitalism sensibilities too much.

While I agree with you that HFT is a scam, I disagree with you that it's a ponzi scheme. It's more like ticket-scalping, so the scheme is going to go on forever, as long as SEC allows it (which they will because the sell-side lobby groups will label themselves as liquidity providers that tighten the spread) and normal people are trading.

What amuses me about Main Street's outrage on HFT is that they suddenly take this expose as a new revelation that Wall Street is screwing with retail investors when the big prop shops/broker-dealers have been raping retail investors and pension plans/retirement mutual funds for decades. HFT is just the latest instrument of exploitations.

Re: High-Frequency Programmers Revolt Over Pay

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is more liquidity always better? (It's an honest question - I have no idea myself).

Imagine liquidity as tank full of fuel in your car. The possibilities of going with a full tank are endless. More fuel than tank's holding capacity is pretty much useless.

> More fuel than tank's holding capacity is pretty much useless.

And what, exactly, is the "tank's holding capacity" for liquidity?

Re: High-Frequency Programmers Revolt Over Pay

#25
post #14
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minute trading introduces very high levels of liquidity to the market. Your thinking represents a common fallacy: "I cannot immediately see any benefit to X, therefore X is pointless / should be abolished".

So? Let's say all subsecond trading is abolished tomorrow, and rather than a smooth curve, all asset prices step at 1-second intervals. What value was destroyed there? If none, what value are these guys creating? None?

> Let's say all subsecond trading is abolished tomorrow, and rather than a smooth curve, all asset prices step at 1-second intervals.

That will tend to expand the bid-ask spread. That hurts both buyer and seller.

Re: High-Frequency Programmers Revolt Over Pay

#26
post #5

A market for trading perception of value should be regulated to increments of days or weeks, not minutes. The current structure for valuating securities does absolutely no good for our society. Not that it's overly evil or anything, it's just pointless, a massive waste of time and money, and is a cancer on our economic system. It's got to be a thrilling thing to code for though.

Minute trading introduces very high levels of liquidity to the market. Your thinking represents a common fallacy: "I cannot immediately see any benefit to X, therefore X is pointless / should be abolished".

I'm not an expert, but how does HFT increase liquidity?

One definition of liquidity is when you can sell something without affecting the price much. Most people on Wall Street will tell you their job somehow increases liquidity -- connecting buyers and sellers in more and more efficient ways.

HFT seems different. It is comparable to front-running other people's orders. Someone tries to buy an item for $1.00, and the HFT algorithm tries to grab the item first and resell it to our original buyer (and other people in the market) for just a tiny bit more.

From my perspective it's effectively a sort of tax, like a bridge toll. It seems to me like this has to make every transaction affect the price more, not less. How does this increase efficiency or liquidity?

Re: High-Frequency Programmers Revolt Over Pay

#27
post #20
post #15

These are leeches stealing money from 401k's and pensions.

I would have agreed with you prior to hearing this argument: if someone's pension fund wants to trade 10,000 shares of a stock with a 2 cent spread, then in the next few seconds market makers are going to make $200, guaranteed. The only thing HFT changes is who the marketmaker that pockets the $200 is going to be: some day trader in the bathrobe, market maker at the exchange, automated proptrading strategy, or a sick…

Umm, yes and no.

Example, I'm Fidelity Bob Fund Manager; after extensive research, I decide to make a decision to buy 200,000 shares of AAPL. So I enter my buy order into my OMS screen, which slices and dices these 200,000 shares into blocks of 100 shares (as for traders not to front-run me, because a naked buy order of 200,000 shares will drive the price up and I'll overpay long after my transaction is completed).

HFT program meanwhile is actively scanning the quote book on all market centers for patterns of such a huge "whale order". Bob Fund may leave discriminating traces of evidence, such as executing the same blocks of buy order under my unique MPID multiple times. Or the HFT program is hooked up to a dark pool where it's constantly sending out small sell orders for 1 share to try to sniff out and match Bob Fund's huge buy order. Or it just might be that the HFT program has reverse-engineered the Bob Fund's VWAP algorithm for slicing/dicing orders and can detect how the orders are being sliced/diced under any given market conditions.

Once the HFT algorithm is certain of a "whale order." It'll actively go out to every single market center, buy up all of the remaining AAPL liquidity on those markets and then present it to Bob Fund (voila! I'm providing you with liquidity at artificially inflated price!). Mr.Bob has no choice but to buy AAPL at a maybe a penny or two higher than what he could have paid for without HFT.

The flip-side of the argument for HFT traders are that perhaps, they are better dealers than traditional dealers. For all we know, there might not be any interested retail investors who are willing to trade with Bob Fund; so Mr.Bob ends up trading with traditional dealers which have traditionally higher spread on the price of their stock, as they take on more risk as a dealer because they don't have the same execution speed and high-turnover rate as a HFT dealer. Also, HFT increases nominally execution speed and brings all market center's prices in line, as if there is a NBBO on ARCA and Bob Fund's order is on BATS, HFT will essentially act as the middle-man to match the true best bid and offer together, in the quickest time.

However, the other counter argument against HFT is that it actually doesn't really provide liquidity to the market, as evident by the June flash-crash. During a situation such as this, broker-dealers are suppose to step during irrational exuberance and depression and trade with irrational investors and put a stop to the crash/rise. But HFT dealers stopped trading that day, triggering a lot of people's stop-market orders and hence we saw ridiculous sell orders of Accenture at $0.01.

So I'd say, HFT is a mix-bag.

Re: High-Frequency Programmers Revolt Over Pay

#29

I have a feeling this article confused the creators of the trading algorithms, which is what makes the money, with pure programmers, who are hired to implement someone else's pre-existing algorithms. Sometimes these are the same person, but in those cases that person almost always has a profit sharing contract, not only a base salary. (And if they don't, they're crazy.) The fact that the programmers in the article on…

That's an easy problem to solve. The people with the trading algorithms can just learn to program. No worries about programmers stealing trading secrets that way.

Re: High-Frequency Programmers Revolt Over Pay

#30
post #26
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minute trading introduces very high levels of liquidity to the market. Your thinking represents a common fallacy: "I cannot immediately see any benefit to X, therefore X is pointless / should be abolished".

I'm not an expert, but how does HFT increase liquidity? One definition of liquidity is when you can sell something without affecting the price much. Most people on Wall Street will tell you their job somehow increases liquidity -- connecting buyers and sellers in more and more efficient ways. HFT seems different. It is comparable to front-running other people's orders. Someone tries to buy an item for $1.00, and the…

You right. But I'll give you the counter-argument.

In the stock market, just like the real estate/auto market, there are never just true buyers and sellers; there are also brokers and dealers who keep a inventory of goods, so that they can sell to non-discriminating retail customers who just want the goods right now. Their expertise and self-interests in turns, affects the price of the good in the whole entire market.

The stock market once have had traditional broker-dealers that controlled the spread of a stock. That is, dealers are willing to buy stocks from impatient traders who are willing to sell at a market order at a price that is set by the dealer; the dealers then in turn, later sell their inventory at an artificially inflated price to impatient traders who are willing buy the stock at a market at the price named by the dealer.

Traditional dealers, in order to tack on the risk of carrying their inventory of stocks (after all, a stock could theoretically drop to zero before they could sell the whole lot), keep the spread of the stock big (they are willing to buy low and sell high) at the expense of retail investors.

HFT, due to their high-tech platform and high execution speed tightens this spread because they don't carry as high a risk of inventory; because their execution speed is in timescale of micro-seconds; so essentially, in the timeframe of seconds, they buy a position and then sell that position subsequently and not really carry that position through for the market to affect the value of that position.

This in theory is good for retail investors as they actually end up paying less for their stocks. But with good technology, you could also use it for bad. With fast computers and sophisticated algorithms, HFT traders could learn how to game the traders and big funds that they are suppose to server - just like a regular car or real estate dealer.

If you know where the consumer demand is, you could buy up all of the supply ahead of time and artificially inflate the price to make people pay more. If you know that your competitors are replicating your every move, you could deceive them by making a small trade against your true intention, have them jump on the bandwagon and swiftly punish them by executing your true big trade afterwords. The possibilities are endless.

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