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Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

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Re: Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

#51

Post by btilly »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #46
Bud wrote: post #26

This article, and this comment thread, both seem to be ignoring what is actually in the way of any "50% more energy" battery tech being used in consumer laptops: FAA regulations limit all such batteries to 100 watt/hrs or less. It's not Apple, it's not Samsung...they have no choice. So until we get over our stupid post-9/11 policies, it doesn't matter if Star Trek batteries magically spring into existence. The tech i…

Sorry but I have to disagree. While the limit is important for appliance electronics like laptops it doesn't have any impact at all on electric vehicles which are all mostly LiOn powered. 50% more range or 50% less weight would be an interesting change to put in the mix at Tesla for example. If you look at where batteries are going to be in volume in the next 20 years it will be in grid storage, off-grid house energy…

If you can store 3/2 times as much with the same battery, you get the same with 2/3 as much battery.

So that should be 50% more range or 33% less weight. Not 50% less weight.

Re: Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

#52

Post by drblast »

hwillis wrote: post #50
davesque wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that common? I was under the impression that it's somewhat scarce and, furthermore, a large amount of Lithium deposits reside in regions of relative political instability: https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/06/daily-...

It's more common in the crust than lead, the second most common battery type, and uses ~100x less per kWh than lead acid batteries do. Lithium is very poorly mapped. The last time the USGS surveyed it was in the 50s IIRC. For instance, that article is wildly inaccurate. It lists 6.9 million tonnes in the US. A single site, 45 miles to a side, in wyoming is estimated at up to 18 million tonnes of lithium[1]. Then agai…

I wish there were one of you for every article topic on here.

Fascinating stuff and great explanations, thanks!

Re: Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

#53

Post by davesque »

hwillis wrote: post #50
davesque wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that common? I was under the impression that it's somewhat scarce and, furthermore, a large amount of Lithium deposits reside in regions of relative political instability: https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/06/daily-...

It's more common in the crust than lead, the second most common battery type, and uses ~100x less per kWh than lead acid batteries do. Lithium is very poorly mapped. The last time the USGS surveyed it was in the 50s IIRC. For instance, that article is wildly inaccurate. It lists 6.9 million tonnes in the US. A single site, 45 miles to a side, in wyoming is estimated at up to 18 million tonnes of lithium[1]. Then agai…

Thanks for your input.

Re: Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

#54

Post by Dylan16807 »

Bud wrote: post #26

This article, and this comment thread, both seem to be ignoring what is actually in the way of any "50% more energy" battery tech being used in consumer laptops: FAA regulations limit all such batteries to 100 watt/hrs or less. It's not Apple, it's not Samsung...they have no choice. So until we get over our stupid post-9/11 policies, it doesn't matter if Star Trek batteries magically spring into existence. The tech i…

You can have multiple batteries. I think.

But I've never had a laptop with a full 100 watt hours anyway, and even more important is my phone where that restriction is miles away.

Re: Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

#55

Post by yosyp »

wernercd wrote: post #16
DennisP wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but the question is, how much of that silicon do you need for your house vs. your car battery.

No... the question is how easy will it be for "Solar" companies to slide into becoming "Solar & Battery" companies. Full solution - all with Silicon. If that's possible - and they can improve the cycle count... or do it cheap enough to make up for a low cycle count... or all of it - improve it, make it cheaper AND under one roof?

You wouldn't want to combine a solar cell and a battery in a single package; maybe in a modular system instead. After some amount of charge/discharge cycles the battery will quickly lose its capacity and utility. I suspect the operational lifespan of photovoltaics is much greater than the best batteries, and will continue to be for some time in the future.

Re: Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

#56

Post by yosyp »

hwillis wrote: post #12
baldfat wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that commercial cells are That has been the conclusion of hundreds of these battery technology stories. We still haven't seen one these to work out yet in the past 20 years.

I assure you, they do regularly. A123 is the most well known example, but the vast majority of new developments don't involve a new company being formed. Making batteries is hard and few researchers want to build companies. Instead these developments quietly slip into commercial formulations as continuous, incremental improvements. There's certainly an unending flood of hyped up articles about new experiments, but al…

Are you referring to Professor Sadoway? I greatly enjoyed his Solid State Chemistry course! Always wondered what will come of his flow battery company (Ambri). Looks like they are still steadily making progress, no?

Re: Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

#57

Post by kpennell »

hwillis wrote: post #10

Silicon has been used in batteries for several years now in low amounts. It hasn't seen larger use because it expands by 400% when filled, compared to graphite's ~12% expansion. Most attempts to solve this have been extremely complicated; nanopatterning, nanowires, graphene coatings to literally compress the silicon metal, etc. It's one of the most promising avenues for battery tech (silicon anodes alone may be able…

thx for weighing in all over this thread

Re: Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

#58

Post by hwillis »

yosyp wrote: post #56
hwillis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you, they do regularly. A123 is the most well known example, but the vast majority of new developments don't involve a new company being formed. Making batteries is hard and few researchers want to build companies. Instead these developments quietly slip into commercial formulations as continuous, incremental improvements. There's certainly an unending flood of hyped up articles about new experiments, but al…

Are you referring to Professor Sadoway? I greatly enjoyed his Solid State Chemistry course! Always wondered what will come of his flow battery company (Ambri). Looks like they are still steadily making progress, no?

I don't think so... I'm awful with names though. I think the story I'm thinking of was about a lithium flow battery. There are dozens of plays in that space.

I will say though, Sadoway is a bona fide friggin genius. I'm still not anywhere close to sold on flow batteries or molten salt/metal batteries, but Sadoway's work is brilliant. He had me genuinely convinced we were about to make all of our steel electrolytically. I still really hope we end up that way.

Re: Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

#59

Post by ngould »

csours wrote: post #17
hwillis wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They steadily make their way into the mainstream. Silicon has been used in batteries for several years now, in low amounts. Usually the new "big news" comes with a significant gotcha. For silicon this has always been the cycle life. Silicon hasn't seen larger use because it expands by 400% when filled, compared to graphite's ~12% expansion. This though- this is very cool. If they've actually demonstrated 100 cycles i…

What are the critical questions you should ask about battery technology? Here are some I've thought of, please suggest others: 1. Cost of raw materials - even if the tech improves, will it still be expensive? 2. Charge/Discharge cycle count - thermal and mechanical stresses 3. Power to weight ratio; power to cost ratio 4. Manufacturability - does it require novel manufacturing techniques or can it be integrated into…

A few other big ones IMO:

7. Energy density (as opposed to power density; i.e. c-rate matters)

8. Temperature sensitivity (many batteries lose voltage at low temps, e.g.)

9. Ability to hold a charge

Re: Batteries with 50 per cent more energy with pure silicon anode

#60

Post by dzhiurgis »

hwillis wrote: post #12
baldfat wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that commercial cells are That has been the conclusion of hundreds of these battery technology stories. We still haven't seen one these to work out yet in the past 20 years.

I assure you, they do regularly. A123 is the most well known example, but the vast majority of new developments don't involve a new company being formed. Making batteries is hard and few researchers want to build companies. Instead these developments quietly slip into commercial formulations as continuous, incremental improvements. There's certainly an unending flood of hyped up articles about new experiments, but al…

Aren't Redflow (awful name, btw) batteries commercially available for home storage?
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