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The concept of schizophrenia is dying

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Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#71

Post by d33 »

coldtea wrote: post #68
hnarn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take this however you want, but I know that a significant source of anxiety for me when I tried weed was the severeness of the consequences if I had been caught. I'm not sure about "the boundaries of perception", from what I remember weed didn't alter my reality much more than getting really drunk does. I don't think it's helpful to put cannabis in the same baket as literally hallucinogenic substances like LSD or "ma…

> a significant source of anxiety for me when I tried weed was the severeness of the consequences if I had been caught. In most of the civilized western world (EU etc), usually not even a slap on the wrist.

That's definitely not the case in Poland, which is part of the EU.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#72

Post by coldtea »

mercer wrote: post #26
mattmanser wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a load of crap. My home town was in the middle of nowhere and a port. A lot of people I know experimented. Like 50 people in the periphery of friends etc. And hundreds of people in the years above and below. Never heard of a single one that had problems. 50%? You're ignorant and alarmist.

Your anecdote and needlessly aggressive comment do make a very compelling argument. But in all seriousness: can you explain why you feel so strongly about this? EDIT: the person I responded to edited their comment to make it 'milder'.

>can you explain why you feel so strongly about this?

Because he doesn't like BS arguments?

And because "so strongly" is not based on some objective measurement, but what you could gauge from a random comment. Maybe he likes/is used to using strong language (e.g. like Linus is) without necessarily feeling that "strongly" about it.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#73

Post by coldtea »

d33 wrote: post #71
coldtea wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant source of anxiety for me when I tried weed was the severeness of the consequences if I had been caught. In most of the civilized western world (EU etc), usually not even a slap on the wrist.

That's definitely not the case in Poland, which is part of the EU.

Yeah, hence "western" -- for me the "real" EU would always be the early 12 states :-)

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#74

Post by scruple »

azernik wrote: post #58
RHSman2 wrote: post #15

I’d suggest that not taking a drug (weed/lsd/mushrooms) that alter ones perceptions of our very existence is a good way of staying mentally sound. If you take ten 16 yr olds, allow them to experiment, 1-2 will drop off the world, 2-3 will have major, life changing changes to the way they view life (border line changes in said spectrum) and the rest handle it fine although with a significant change in lifestyle. As so…

Psychedelics (LSD and mushrooms) are VERY different in their effects than weed. Have tried both categories.

So have I, and I've had extreme reactions to both. LSD was actually the easiest on me if I consider my worst experiences together. A bad mushroom trip, being the worst of the worst, left my personality in tatters and it took me over a year to truly recover from the experience. Marijuana induces crippling anxiety in me. I was having issues sleeping a few years ago, so I got a medical card. Even one hit was overwhelming. When I was a late teenager, I would smoke a couple times a week and it was generally fine. I'm not sure how or why my body responds the way it does but, personally, it's not at all fun and not at all relaxing or mind expanding in the ways most people suggest. It's just a really shitty time and it's mostly impossible to talk to other users about it because they don't have these responses and don't understand it.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#75

Post by mercer »

coldtea wrote: post #72
mercer wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your anecdote and needlessly aggressive comment do make a very compelling argument. But in all seriousness: can you explain why you feel so strongly about this? EDIT: the person I responded to edited their comment to make it 'milder'.

> can you explain why you feel so strongly about this? Because he doesn't like BS arguments? And because "so strongly" is not based on some objective measurement, but what you could gauge from a random comment. Maybe he likes/is used to using strong language (e.g. like Linus is) without necessarily feeling that "strongly" about it.

> Because he doesn't like BS arguments?

I agree that they're BS, but they're common and pernicious, and as such worth a proper response, frustrating as that might be.

> And because "so strongly" is not based on some objective measurement, but what you could gauge from a random comment. Maybe he likes/is used to using strong language (e.g. like Linus is) without necessarily feeling that "strongly" about it.

Fair enough. I got that impression because of some other comments by the same person in this thread, but you're right, I might be reading into things.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#76

Post by vlehto »

coldtea wrote: post #69
vlehto wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible that people gravitate towards different drugs in a way that makes the users of any given drug a non-representative sample. If I use myself as example. I don't use any psychedelics because I'm completely satisfied with my level of creativity. As a result it's possible that we completely lack data on how psychedelics mingle with naturally high creativity. I also don't use weed, because it just simply make…

> If I use myself as example. I don't use any psychedelics because I'm completely satisfied with my level of creativity. As a result it's possible that we completely lack data on how psychedelics mingle with naturally high creativity. Given that tons of (already very creative) musicians, painters, writers, etc have tried and used them, I really doubt this...

You don't need to be creative to sing or play. You need to be creative to compose.

Do we actually know that many creative musicians, writers etc. were creative before using? I'd imagine it's really tricky to track down the starting dates of drug use. Or when someone started composing for that matter.

But yeah, that was just to illustrate the point anyhow. And the point is that people self select heavily on which drugs they use. So the user group of any drug is not representative sample.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#77

Post by bane »

I grew up with a close uncle who suffered for decades from this disease. The tales of his brilliant youth, on track as a naval nuclear engineer, are only more tragic to the shattered shell of a man I knew. Most of his treatment involved a cocktail mix of a dozen or so "medicines" who's primary purpose appeared to be to keep him sedated for long stretches of the day.

He was absolutely unable to hold a job, or even a coherent conversation, and was in and out of half-way houses and treatment programs. At times he would get violent to himself or others as various psychotic fantasies moved him to be. He famously assaulted my sister one day before my father sent him away to stay with my mother's family (of which he was a sibling)...when he remembered the event at all he insisted he was trying to save her from one of a variety of fantastic and impossible sequences of events.

Often in tears trying to explain what he had been trying to do, the family eventually concluded that in his mind he was trying to do a good thing and help against some imaginary evil, but his reality was so distorted it had turned into harm and that we simply couldn't risk his presence any further.

Drugs of various levels of legality were a constant feature of his life. It was well known that he ended up dropping out of the Navy as a pot head that morphed into a serious cocaine and lsd user. Much of his treatment in his later years was trying to get him to stop self-medicating and to let the professionals provide the legal stuff.

He made it to his 60s before a tumble in the bathroom knocked him unconscious and sent him into a hospital bed where he never woke up. Another Uncle, the guardian of his estate, made the decision to take him off of life support and hope his next chance turned out better than this one. His autopsy wasn't revealing, his system was basically a mobile pharmacy and narcotics evidence locker combined, but it still devastated the siblings who had tried to help him find his way back to the brilliant 20 year old they last remember.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#78

Post by hutzlibu »

RHSman2 wrote: post #15

I’d suggest that not taking a drug (weed/lsd/mushrooms) that alter ones perceptions of our very existence is a good way of staying mentally sound. If you take ten 16 yr olds, allow them to experiment, 1-2 will drop off the world, 2-3 will have major, life changing changes to the way they view life (border line changes in said spectrum) and the rest handle it fine although with a significant change in lifestyle. As so…

I agree. Weed (etc.) can not be healthy "for fitting into normal, standard life".

But there is a different view to it, than just claiming "drugs are bad".

Because there are quite some people claiming, that a "normal, standard life" with a 9 to 5 job and bounded by many weird social customs in a hectic enviroment which very often rewards lying and assholeness - is in itself not healthy. And some drugs can enable people to step outside and see things from a different angle, that "normal" is maybe not allways good. And that a different "normal" might be possible.

The main problem arises if those people now decide to escape into the psychodelic world, instead of using their insights to actually do things differently. Most of them will mentally break down, sooner or later.

And btw. "If you take ten 16 yr olds, allow them to experiment" ... most 16 yr olds will experiment, whether you allow them, or not. Which I think is good in general, for progress for the new generation, but I think the chances are much higher for things go dark, if you push them too much into illegality. Then it is much harder to help them find moderation and balancing.

So I would argue, drugs can be and are beneficial for society to develop. But they are powerful and therefore dangerous.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#79

Post by hutzlibu »

coldtea wrote: post #73
d33 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's definitely not the case in Poland, which is part of the EU.

Yeah, hence "western" -- for me the "real" EU would always be the early 12 states :-)

And also in those "real" EU states, you can get serious problems, if you are in the health sector for example.

But if you are a student wanning to become a software-developer, then yes, allmost nobody cares.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#80

Post by [deleted] »

bane wrote: post #77

I grew up with a close uncle who suffered for decades from this disease. The tales of his brilliant youth, on track as a naval nuclear engineer, are only more tragic to the shattered shell of a man I knew. Most of his treatment involved a cocktail mix of a dozen or so "medicines" who's primary purpose appeared to be to keep him sedated for long stretches of the day. He was absolutely unable to hold a job, or even a c…

[deleted]
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