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The concept of schizophrenia is dying

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Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#61

Post by DanBC »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #2

I would argue that the indications of schizophrenia being associated with weed is ascribing a causative effect to a correlation. Weed doesn’t increase your chances of schizophrenia unless you already had something that would tilt you in that direction in the first place, from my experience. I would say I do agree that schizophrenia probably needs to be broken up; it was merely a collection of symptoms to begin with t…

> Weed doesn’t increase your chances of schizophrenia unless you already had something that would tilt you in that direction in the first place, from my experience

I really wish people on both sides of this argument would stop pushing what they think and just look at some evidence.

The interplay between cannabis, tobacco, medication, and psychosis is incredibly complex. We can't yet say there's no causative effects of cannabis, because it's hard to remove confounding factors.

For example: https://www.nationalelfservice.net/mental-health/substance-m...

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#62

Post by dredmorbius »

nradov wrote: post #48
ivkustov wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We actually shouldn't. The psychoanalysis is contempted and forgotten however psychoanalysis is something like a computer language, the language of human inner world. Some kind of lisp with probably terrible interpreter. The modern neuroscience is of course something like an assembler. So lisp or assembler? If you want to write modern OS, then you know the answer. The Freud, Jung, Lacan theory is related to psychothe…

If a man who was wrong about almost everything can be considered a genius then the word "genius" has lost all meaning.

There are dimensions to genius.

Seeing a common subject, a set of boundaries, a possible (even if incorrect) set of guiding principles, can be genius. If it inspires further exploration or refinement or even rejection of ideas, it's a productive step.

Einstein railed against QM, Newton believed in alchemy, Kelvin though the Earth was 30 million years old, the list of people opposed to continental drift / plate techtonics is vast (see Naomi Oreskes several papers and books on the history of the development of that subject), Samuel Morse had what would now be dispicable views on race and religion, Ford was an anti-semite, Crick and/or Watson have their own failings, etc., etc., etc.

Much of genius is being able to jump out of and beyond the present dominant paradigm and mental models. It's not about being right but of being less wrong. Than that which came before, not after.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#63

Post by empath75 »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #59
stephengillie wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you be more descriptive about the "close call" you had "with the boundaries of perception"? I've been using cannabis daily for over a decade to be a normal person, having found that it removes my anxiety, and allows me to operate as a normal individual in society. When I am not using, I become a terrible anxious mess who can't even talk to clerks in stores. Also your last sentence seems incomplete - did you int…

The problem with cannabis is its extreme variance of effects. Some people like yourself seem to have very positive effects. Myself, I've consumed a whole wack of different drugs including the usual psychedelics plus various dissociatives over the years and cannabis is easily the most unpleasant in its effects on me. Paranoia, very unpleasant thoughts and paranoia, sad feeling, accentuated body pain (I have chronic ba…

Most of those feelings are pretty common if you smoke too much pot.

I have a very low tolerance for it and while I had a few good times with it, I had what you describe happen more often than not.

But the feeling you have while on drugs generally goes away when you’re not on them. I wouldn’t assume that because taking a drug gives you a feeling that approximates a psychological problem that it would necessarily be a cause of that psychological problem beyond the time you were intoxicated.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#64

Post by coldtea »

manmal wrote: post #54
ivkustov wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We actually shouldn't. The psychoanalysis is contempted and forgotten however psychoanalysis is something like a computer language, the language of human inner world. Some kind of lisp with probably terrible interpreter. The modern neuroscience is of course something like an assembler. So lisp or assembler? If you want to write modern OS, then you know the answer. The Freud, Jung, Lacan theory is related to psychothe…

I would not call him genius. Alfred Adler perhaps was. Freud was a misogyn and a drug addict, and he proposed a lot of theories that leave modern people scratching their heads. Eg he attributed almost all mental problems to sexuality, coined the ridiculous Oedipus complex, and once called girls „strange little beings without a penis“. Sure, the field was at the very beginning, but why did he always have to bring peni…

>Freud was a misogyn and a drug addict, and he proposed a lot of theories that leave modern people scratching their heads.

All three are totally orthogonal to someone being a genius -- and at least the second is a very puritan concern to level at someone regarding their contributions to science/culture/etc.

>Eg he attributed almost all mental problems to sexuality

And a heck of a lot (of the soft kind, not physiological issues) can be attributed there -- especially since the only real mechanism behind humanity's (and any animals) continued existence, and the closest thing to an "end purpose" for any individual, is reproduction.

>coined the ridiculous Oedipus complex

Nothing ridiculous about it -- and it was not for some irrelevant chance that those kind of relationships and dynamics were studied and concerned civilizations for millennia (including, but not limited nor starting from, the ancient Greek play on Oedipus).

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#65

Post by DanBC »

The UK British Psychological Society recently released an update to their Understanding Psychosis and Schizophrenia report.

People may be interested in it. http://www.bps.org.uk/networks-and-communities/member-micros...

It's had some criticism: it includes a bunch of people who probably aren't psychotic (auditory hallucinations are common, and not always a sign of illness, for example), and it appears to exclude a bunch of people who have severe forms of illness.

Here are two blog posts that give a thorough, evidence based, review:

https://www.nationalelfservice.net/publication-types/report/...

https://www.nationalelfservice.net/mental-health/psychosis/u...

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#66

Post by vlehto »

gabuzome wrote: post #43
RHSman2 wrote: post #15

I’d suggest that not taking a drug (weed/lsd/mushrooms) that alter ones perceptions of our very existence is a good way of staying mentally sound. If you take ten 16 yr olds, allow them to experiment, 1-2 will drop off the world, 2-3 will have major, life changing changes to the way they view life (border line changes in said spectrum) and the rest handle it fine although with a significant change in lifestyle. As so…

While the experience itself may resemble psychosis at times, lsd/mushrooms, when taken in a proper setting, will not turn you mentally unsound. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747247/ "21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, pe…

It's possible that people gravitate towards different drugs in a way that makes the users of any given drug a non-representative sample.

If I use myself as example. I don't use any psychedelics because I'm completely satisfied with my level of creativity. As a result it's possible that we completely lack data on how psychedelics mingle with naturally high creativity.

I also don't use weed, because it just simply makes me uncomfortable. That could be my brain protecting me from weed, as I may have strong tendency to go completely insane with prolonged use.

Those are just anecdotal speculations to illustrate a point. I'm not really claiming that they are any sort of facts.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#67

Post by cmrdporcupine »

empath75 wrote: post #63
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with cannabis is its extreme variance of effects. Some people like yourself seem to have very positive effects. Myself, I've consumed a whole wack of different drugs including the usual psychedelics plus various dissociatives over the years and cannabis is easily the most unpleasant in its effects on me. Paranoia, very unpleasant thoughts and paranoia, sad feeling, accentuated body pain (I have chronic ba…

Most of those feelings are pretty common if you smoke too much pot. I have a very low tolerance for it and while I had a few good times with it, I had what you describe happen more often than not. But the feeling you have while on drugs generally goes away when you’re not on them. I wouldn’t assume that because taking a drug gives you a feeling that approximates a psychological problem that it would necessarily be a…

I don't make that assumption at all. But I've also seen many people, including family, go down a road with the drug that did in fact lead to pretty severe emotional and life function difficulties that went away after the cessation of the drug.

All of this applies to alcohol as well, surely... but that is hardly a high bar.

I was a lot more tolerant of cannabis advocacy before I had kids and before legalization came on the agenda here in Canada. Now that it will be legal I hope the emphasis shifts away from advocacy and to education for responsible use.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#68

Post by coldtea »

hnarn wrote: post #23
RHSman2 wrote: post #15

I’d suggest that not taking a drug (weed/lsd/mushrooms) that alter ones perceptions of our very existence is a good way of staying mentally sound. If you take ten 16 yr olds, allow them to experiment, 1-2 will drop off the world, 2-3 will have major, life changing changes to the way they view life (border line changes in said spectrum) and the rest handle it fine although with a significant change in lifestyle. As so…

Take this however you want, but I know that a significant source of anxiety for me when I tried weed was the severeness of the consequences if I had been caught. I'm not sure about "the boundaries of perception", from what I remember weed didn't alter my reality much more than getting really drunk does. I don't think it's helpful to put cannabis in the same baket as literally hallucinogenic substances like LSD or "ma…

>a significant source of anxiety for me when I tried weed was the severeness of the consequences if I had been caught.

In most of the civilized western world (EU etc), usually not even a slap on the wrist.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#69

Post by coldtea »

vlehto wrote: post #66
gabuzome wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the experience itself may resemble psychosis at times, lsd/mushrooms, when taken in a proper setting, will not turn you mentally unsound. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747247/ "21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, pe…

It's possible that people gravitate towards different drugs in a way that makes the users of any given drug a non-representative sample. If I use myself as example. I don't use any psychedelics because I'm completely satisfied with my level of creativity. As a result it's possible that we completely lack data on how psychedelics mingle with naturally high creativity. I also don't use weed, because it just simply make…

>If I use myself as example. I don't use any psychedelics because I'm completely satisfied with my level of creativity. As a result it's possible that we completely lack data on how psychedelics mingle with naturally high creativity.

Given that tons of (already very creative) musicians, painters, writers, etc have tried and used them, I really doubt this...

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#70

Post by coldtea »

StavrosK wrote: post #45
gabuzome wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the experience itself may resemble psychosis at times, lsd/mushrooms, when taken in a proper setting, will not turn you mentally unsound. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747247/ "21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, pe…

Granted, I haven't really taken any large doses, but for me psychoactives don't expand my perception in any way. They're just a really really fun thing to do a few times a year, when I have nothing else to do for 8 hours. I never experienced the spiritual element, or oneness with the universe, etc. Maybe I need to take more than 100ug. I definitely feel it's a pity that it's illegal and so demonized, though. It's the…

Or insist on actual LSD and not some cheap psychoactive passing as such?
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