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The concept of schizophrenia is dying

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Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#41

Post by mercer »

mattmanser wrote: post #30
mercer wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your anecdote and needlessly aggressive comment do make a very compelling argument. But in all seriousness: can you explain why you feel so strongly about this? EDIT: the person I responded to edited their comment to make it 'milder'.

I hate seeing utter lies like this in any debate. It's propaganda and I react strongly to it. Claiming 50% of teenagers smoking weed , let alone lsd, will have problems is an utter, out-right lie. I was never into drugs like friends, if that's what you're insinuating. I tried a few, but beer was my drug of choice, and nicotine for a while. There are polls where something like 40-50% of UK teenagers (and probably US)…

I don't disagree with you concerning OP's claims, so I'm mostly on your side, but I don't see how you're helping by 1) frothing at the mouth at a point of view that, however wrong it may be, is very common, and 2) making an equally unbalanced claim of the opposite based on anecdata.

There's plenty of evidence that pot smoking can at the very least exacerbate problems, which strikes me as blindingly obvious when it comes to any substance that has mood altering effects as strong as weed, and I have just as much anecdata to support that view.

That said, I guess I can understand the frustration. I don't know where you live and what the status of weed is, but as a Dutch person I do realize that I don't (often) have to deal with the 'weed is evil' argument, and consequently it's easier for me to not get too upset about it.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#42

Post by tim333 »

chris_wot wrote: post #31
nnfy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because he has a problem with fear mongering.

It’s not fear mongering. The Lancet published an article about continued and discontinued use of cannabis after psychosis. http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-03... But it states that there is a well established link between cannabis and psychosis.

Yeah but the numbers are far lower than OP suggested.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#43

Post by gabuzome »

RHSman2 wrote: post #15

I’d suggest that not taking a drug (weed/lsd/mushrooms) that alter ones perceptions of our very existence is a good way of staying mentally sound. If you take ten 16 yr olds, allow them to experiment, 1-2 will drop off the world, 2-3 will have major, life changing changes to the way they view life (border line changes in said spectrum) and the rest handle it fine although with a significant change in lifestyle. As so…

While the experience itself may resemble psychosis at times, lsd/mushrooms, when taken in a proper setting, will not turn you mentally unsound.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747247/ "21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, peyote), or past year use of LSD and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes. Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with lower rate of mental health problems."

Now everyone agrees 16 yr olds shouldn't be abusing any psychoactive drugs while their brain is still developing, but don't ruin it for us adults, it is an important part of the human experience (though it isn't for everyone, since for psychedelics, expanding the way you view life is generally the end goal.)

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#44

Post by bencollier49 »

Aloha wrote: post #4

Schizophrenia is one of those disorders that medicine has, that is likely not one discrete condition, its likely a multitude of different psychological illnesses all flying under one banner, even if the underlying psychology and physiology are quite different for different people. As we get better with medicine, we find more illnesses - for example, its part of why I think cancer is found so much more often now, whil…

Like Asthma.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#45

Post by StavrosK »

gabuzome wrote: post #43
RHSman2 wrote: post #15

I’d suggest that not taking a drug (weed/lsd/mushrooms) that alter ones perceptions of our very existence is a good way of staying mentally sound. If you take ten 16 yr olds, allow them to experiment, 1-2 will drop off the world, 2-3 will have major, life changing changes to the way they view life (border line changes in said spectrum) and the rest handle it fine although with a significant change in lifestyle. As so…

While the experience itself may resemble psychosis at times, lsd/mushrooms, when taken in a proper setting, will not turn you mentally unsound. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747247/ "21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, pe…

Granted, I haven't really taken any large doses, but for me psychoactives don't expand my perception in any way. They're just a really really fun thing to do a few times a year, when I have nothing else to do for 8 hours. I never experienced the spiritual element, or oneness with the universe, etc. Maybe I need to take more than 100ug.

I definitely feel it's a pity that it's illegal and so demonized, though. It's the most fun I've had with $4, and I unreservedly recommend it.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#46

Post by ivkustov »

Pica_soO wrote: post #38
thanatropism wrote: post #35

There's something important the article seems to be getting wrong: psychosis is a symptom, not a disease. There are such things as psychotic depression and post-partum depression; psychosis is a symptom of severe bipolar mania, etc. By the way, the concept of schizophrenia first comes up in Emil Kraepelin's realization that bipolar disorder (manic-depression) and schizophrenia ("precocious dementia") are distinct pat…

Freud is dead. Dead and gone. We moved on. Really, i know he founded the field and made for a nice soap opera gossip generator when discussing other peoples problems sources (generating alot of unnecessary drama, to people who already had drama, like having the genes for schizophrenia in the family)- so please could we stop mentioning him, when discussing modern neurology. Its like a tribe on a pacific island had dis…

We actually shouldn't. The psychoanalysis is contempted and forgotten however psychoanalysis is something like a computer language, the language of human inner world.

Some kind of lisp with probably terrible interpreter.

The modern neuroscience is of course something like an assembler. So lisp or assembler? If you want to write modern OS, then you know the answer.

The Freud, Jung, Lacan theory is related to psychotherapeutic work is like automata theory relationships to writing modern enterprise applications.

I don't believe there is something 'true' or 'objective' in psychoanalysis - deep inside is some ocean, some chaos of different introjections, emotions and feelings. But the psychoanalysis helps to create structure there, to look and make sense out of the ocean.

There is no substitude for psychoanalysis except really good prose probably or poetry.

And of course Freud was a genius.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#47

Post by panacea »

mattmanser wrote: post #25
RHSman2 wrote: post #15

I’d suggest that not taking a drug (weed/lsd/mushrooms) that alter ones perceptions of our very existence is a good way of staying mentally sound. If you take ten 16 yr olds, allow them to experiment, 1-2 will drop off the world, 2-3 will have major, life changing changes to the way they view life (border line changes in said spectrum) and the rest handle it fine although with a significant change in lifestyle. As so…

What a load of crap. My home town was in the middle of nowhere and a port. A lot of people I know experimented. Like 50 people in the periphery of friends etc. And hundreds of people in the years above and below. Never heard of a single one that had problems. 50%? You're ignorant and alarmist.

My brother got heavily into weed at a young age (15-16). He developed strong schizophrenia. Was medicated which helped him, but went off the meds, left his wife, and died falling off a train that he was graffiting.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#48

Post by nradov »

ivkustov wrote: post #46
Pica_soO wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freud is dead. Dead and gone. We moved on. Really, i know he founded the field and made for a nice soap opera gossip generator when discussing other peoples problems sources (generating alot of unnecessary drama, to people who already had drama, like having the genes for schizophrenia in the family)- so please could we stop mentioning him, when discussing modern neurology. Its like a tribe on a pacific island had dis…

We actually shouldn't. The psychoanalysis is contempted and forgotten however psychoanalysis is something like a computer language, the language of human inner world. Some kind of lisp with probably terrible interpreter. The modern neuroscience is of course something like an assembler. So lisp or assembler? If you want to write modern OS, then you know the answer. The Freud, Jung, Lacan theory is related to psychothe…

If a man who was wrong about almost everything can be considered a genius then the word "genius" has lost all meaning.

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#49

Post by pizza »

Pica_soO wrote: post #38
thanatropism wrote: post #35

There's something important the article seems to be getting wrong: psychosis is a symptom, not a disease. There are such things as psychotic depression and post-partum depression; psychosis is a symptom of severe bipolar mania, etc. By the way, the concept of schizophrenia first comes up in Emil Kraepelin's realization that bipolar disorder (manic-depression) and schizophrenia ("precocious dementia") are distinct pat…

Freud is dead. Dead and gone. We moved on. Really, i know he founded the field and made for a nice soap opera gossip generator when discussing other peoples problems sources (generating alot of unnecessary drama, to people who already had drama, like having the genes for schizophrenia in the family)- so please could we stop mentioning him, when discussing modern neurology. Its like a tribe on a pacific island had dis…

If you want to call something irrational, at least make sure it's an action, rather than a belief. It doesn't matter what zero-cost belief someone holds until they put their money where their mouth is.

The whole point of this thread is that modern neuroscience is showing us that the classification of schizophrenia in modern terms was not rational either.

It makes sense to work at higher level information, at the level of feelings and dialogue, than at a lower level, e.g. epigenetic circumstances or neuronal metabolic disorders, if one mistakenly overestimates their grasp on the phenomenon.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as "the genes for schizophrenia" - nor would I be so quick to dismiss the skepticism he brought to the preexisting field of analyzing people's problems, just because he became a mythical figure in pop culture to the point that more people have a mistaken view of what he wrote than have read him.

Why did it matter what he wrote? Because there were many things he wrote that made people recognize things in others. Of the things they recognized, what worked either lasted and was retained, or fell out of mode due to people becoming fed up with him as long ago as the 1920s, or served as a benchmark/competition for others to test ideas against to find any that worked better. It really doesn't have much to do with stymying conversation because of cargo cult thinking..

Re: The concept of schizophrenia is dying

#50

Post by pizza »

nradov wrote: post #48
ivkustov wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We actually shouldn't. The psychoanalysis is contempted and forgotten however psychoanalysis is something like a computer language, the language of human inner world. Some kind of lisp with probably terrible interpreter. The modern neuroscience is of course something like an assembler. So lisp or assembler? If you want to write modern OS, then you know the answer. The Freud, Jung, Lacan theory is related to psychothe…

If a man who was wrong about almost everything can be considered a genius then the word "genius" has lost all meaning.

Would you consider Democritus a genius? Or Zeno?
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