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Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

theguardian.com

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Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#91

Post by maxerickson »

visarga wrote: post #86
maxerickson wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Superman is pretty much Hercules for the jet age. Born special, good at trying, wildly powerful, noble, etc.

What I don't like about Superman is his powers: they lack imagination. He's just strong (like a tractor or a crane), fast (like an airplane or rocket), has laser eyes (like... lasers), extremely sensitive hearing (like spy microphones) and X-ray vision (like microwave cameras). So he's not transcendent at all - we already have all his powers with the help of banal devices. Superman = just a regular man + devices = To…

He's a demigod though, the stuff I've read all makes it clear enough he could shred Batman (who isn't meaningfully different than Stark for this discussion), he just won't do it.

Or there is some kryptonite around. But he never throws a big thing at Batman to kill him in those situations (where he is given the power elsewhere to throw whatever the hell he wants).

I do agree it makes for kind of a boring character though.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#92

Post by ehnto »

toyg wrote: post #66
ubernostrum wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe one of the uses of mythology and epic cultural sagas in earlier ages wasn't "a kind of escapism"?

Yes, but when you look at the ratio of escapist material to material that was used to directly make sense of the world around the audience, older material seems to have a smaller amount of fluff. However, this is probably just a function of historical preservation; we only know of the masterpieces that were passed down because of them being key to philosophical research, while tons of "lighter" material has simply be…

I wonder if how completely we have attempted to understand our world has led only to greater cynicism, and there followed increased escapism.

When there is no low hanging fruit left to ponder the pondering gets done by specialists. Likewise there is less need for light practical advice books because industrialization has made the individual crafstman less common, and again specialists take center stage in their silos of information. It's also unlikely to be in a book.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#93

Post by rixed »

humanrebar wrote: post #29

Moore says: > I would also observe that it is, potentially, culturally catastrophic to have the ephemera of a previous century squatting possessively on the cultural stage and refusing to allow this surely unprecedented era to develop a culture of its own, relevant and sufficient to its times. And Tolkien said: > There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish [mythology] (which greatly…

> I see "comic book" universes as evolving into a modern mythology,

Or rather the other way around: you see mythology as some kind of old superhero stories.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#94

Post by pmoriarty »

Iv wrote: post #82

I wholeheartedly agree. More than the simplistic worldview they offer, what I I find distressing in superheroes culture (that contaminated other genres as well) is that it promotes a narrative of the providential individual, set to save the day. Teams are 4 or 5 persons max, bigger organizations are seen as either evil or incompetent. We are losing the taste for collaborative work. We are promoting the idea that only…

Exceptional individuals making a difference has been the stock and trade of almost all fiction, of religious and mythical literature, and even a lot of non-fiction like biography and history, for thousands of years.

You have a tough road ahead of you if you want to convince most creators that this is the wrong direction.

That said, there have been some literary periods when writing about ordinary, completely unexceptional individuals was fashionable, and I suppose it still is in some circles.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#95

Post by CommentCard »

ThatGeoGuy wrote: post #78
CommentCard wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the vast majority of superhero movies are engineered through focus-group testing to be as palatable to as many people as possible that they become bland. Logan was the only genre movie in recent memory that eschewed this formula and confronted the messy topic of the senescence of the age of the superhero.

Which is an interesting counter-point to Alan Moore: just because a (sizable) portion of superhero movies aren't thrusting culture forward, doesn't mean that they have to be. Having familiar characters in a known environment can certainly help pick the audience up to get them to a point where more complex topics become palatable. The fact that these characters are "superheroes" is incidental, and not terribly importa…

That's a fair analysis. They are blockbusters first, and superhero movies second. I do hope that the genre will evolve towards more interesting topics beyond Good vs. Evil. The Dark Knight showed a nuanced view of how one cannot exist without the other, even within one hero's mythos itself. Unfortunately movies like The Dark Knight and Logan that are willing and capable of tackling nuance and complexity in a feature film aren't common for the genre.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#96

Post by sirspacey »

empath75 wrote: post #72
sirspacey wrote: post #58

Reading this again, I cannot miss the irony that Alan is accusing our culture of the very thing he has done - retreat from the complexities of conflicts in our modern culture. Racism and sexual violence are at the top of that list. FWIW, discussing either of those topics as a white, middle-class, middle-aged male doesn't come with a lot of natural/implied moral authority. For the philosophically inclined among that g…

Even if you agree that it’s preferable that certain topics be addressed by particular groups are are most affected by them — at the time Alan Moore was writing originally, that wasn’t an option. Either a white male wrote about it or it didn’t get written about, for the most part. He (and the rest of the British Invasion) opened a lot of doors for various topics to get addressed in mainstream comics for the first time…

Good point, he was a pioneer in bringing those topics to the art form. His response didn't anger me, it just struck me as less than consistent with his justification for withdrawing from the public debate.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#97

Post by olavk »

sirspacey wrote: post #58

Reading this again, I cannot miss the irony that Alan is accusing our culture of the very thing he has done - retreat from the complexities of conflicts in our modern culture. Racism and sexual violence are at the top of that list. FWIW, discussing either of those topics as a white, middle-class, middle-aged male doesn't come with a lot of natural/implied moral authority. For the philosophically inclined among that g…

> One way to do that is to be the listener as they take the pulpit.

So you are basically asking Alan More to shut up and stop producing literature because he is white and middle aged?

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#98

Post by olavk »

sirspacey wrote: post #96
empath75 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you agree that it’s preferable that certain topics be addressed by particular groups are are most affected by them — at the time Alan Moore was writing originally, that wasn’t an option. Either a white male wrote about it or it didn’t get written about, for the most part. He (and the rest of the British Invasion) opened a lot of doors for various topics to get addressed in mainstream comics for the first time…

Good point, he was a pioneer in bringing those topics to the art form. His response didn't anger me, it just struck me as less than consistent with his justification for withdrawing from the public debate.

He is NOT withdrawing from public debate. His works are a part of and a contribution to this debate, and as far as I know he have no intention of stopping working. He is just wants to withdraw from the journalistic social media shitstorms based on limited readings and misunderstandings of his works.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#99

Post by toyg »

chrisweekly wrote: post #71
toyg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no modern "bad guys" can do unambiguous, demented evil as well as the Nazis used to The Nazis were complete shits on an unprecedented scale, but there was quite a bit of "demented evil" done by Americans too in WWII, like carpet-bombing European cities and interning citizens of Japanese ancestry. The world has never been simple. "Black & white" is always a result of hegemonic propaganda more than actual conditions.…

Typo? (2011-09-11-> 2001-09-11)

Lol yeah, meant 2001 — 2003...

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#100

Post by olavk »

brad0 wrote: post #14

Half formed thought, but are today's superheroes last generation's Clint Eastwood/Steve McQueen/John Wayne?

Good point. I would say it is not surprising that people remain interested in the genres they loved as kids. The whole idea that certain genres corresponds to certain ages might be a misunderstanding of demographics - it is more likely that genres follow generations. Like how punk rock was considered only for teenagers, but when those teenagers grew older they continued to like punk rock, while new generations of teenagers like other genres.

Superheros might be dumb (with the odd flashes of brilliance), but they are not really dumber than James Bond or westerns or Agatha Christie or whatever escapistic genres have been popular.

I also think Moore understands this pretty deeply (considering his deep dives into historical popular culture in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen), but he just have some personal bitterness towards the superhero business, so he likes to disparage its fans.

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