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Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

theguardian.com

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Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#31

Post by mikeash »

hguant wrote: post #19

I don't see how this is news. Alan Moore has been decrying and hating on superheroes for the entirety of his career, for largely the same reasons throughout. This is great when it's communicated through his work - showing what comics could be without superheroes, or critiquing the genre from within (Watchmen and Marvelman/Miracleman reboot come to mind), but his personal disdain for the consumers of his products is o…

I think some of it is just a change in the terms we use.

Take Guardians of the Galaxy for example. A fun superhero movie! Except it’s really just a science fiction movie that avoids the “SF” term. It’s pretty similar to something like Star Wars in terms of the characters and technologies shown... but for some reason, Luke Skywalker isn’t a “superhero.”

Or consider the Greek myths. Instead of superheroes, they had “gods” and “demigods” and such. What’s the difference? None, really.

Humans have always enjoyed morally unambiguous tales of heroes beyond the ordinary. There’s a place for complex entertainment too, but it’s unreasonable to expect it to dominate.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#32

Post by syntheticnature »

Theodores wrote: post #3

It sounds like Alan Moore has had enough of the media and journalists. Well meaning that they may be individually they are collectively like a passive-aggressive narcissist eager to latch on to the slightest thing to bring the man down. It sounds to me that he just wants to get out of this abusive relationship and get on with his life. The point of the article - that there is something weird about grown adults and th…

> Now grown ups with no children of their own or signs of learning disabilities can go and watch this comic-superhero rewrites on the big screen and talk about how great the acting, story and everything else was, as if it was serious art that they had seen.

As opposed to any given non-comic-derived action, comedy, romance, or horror movie? I didn't know that something has to be "serious art" to comment about the acting or the story. Moreover, given box office results, it's rare that any movie considered to be art is all that popular.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#33

Post by humanrebar »

hguant wrote: post #19

I don't see how this is news. Alan Moore has been decrying and hating on superheroes for the entirety of his career, for largely the same reasons throughout. This is great when it's communicated through his work - showing what comics could be without superheroes, or critiquing the genre from within (Watchmen and Marvelman/Miracleman reboot come to mind), but his personal disdain for the consumers of his products is o…

> I think that comics are a retreat from that...

Except most comic book stories are about heroes that are morally compromised in various ways: their pasts, their methods, the unintended consequences of their actions, etc. What's more, outside of issue films, I have a hard time thinking of much popular film these days that is black and white.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#34

Post by mikeash »

nnfy wrote: post #17

Perhaps comics are beginning to fill the void left by retreating religion. It is comforting to imagine a world in which things make sense, where good triumphs over evil, where you have an opportunity to be a part of something larger than yourself; especially when you're working a dead end job and you feel like your nation is falling apart. Unfortunately, unlike most religion, comics and comic based films are lacking…

On the plus side, the vast majority of comic book fans understand that the stuff is fiction. And it seems to me that there’s plenty of community and self improvement to be had in that group too.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#35

Post by groovy2shoes »

pmoriarty wrote: post #20
tboyd47 wrote: post #9

I think he's overstating Marvel/DC's cultural significance. The new generation of viewers have a very different moral sensibility. The evil is much more shockingly evil, but the good is less cartoonish and more relatable, and therefore more vulnerable. I just finished watching the new Stranger Things season. One of the things I love about that show is that it juxtaposes the 1980s kids' sci-fi genre with a storyline t…

Don't sell 80's viewers short. Many of us put up with, and sometimes even enjoyed, the pap that was fed to us by the TV networks back then, but that doesn't mean that's what we preferred. That's just all we had, created by people who grew up on media from the 50's and 60's. The media of today is often created by the very people who were dissatisfied with what was available to us back in the 80's. It'll be interesting…

> The media of today is often created by the very people who were dissatisfied with what was available to us back in the 80's. It'll be interesting to see what people dissatisfied with the media of today come up with in another 30 years.

This is a good observation, and seems to be true to me throughout literary/artistic history. You can look back through time, and many eras are obviously predominated by a particular creative movement, and each movement can be seen as a reaction of the previous dominant movement: postmodernism as a reaction of creators who were dissatisfied with modernism, modernism as a reaction of those who were dissatisfied with realism, itself a reaction to romanticism, etc. Hegelian dialectics come to mind.

Of course, the avant-garde of any era didn't necessarily dislike the former movement (or otherwise be entirely unappreciative of it) to be dissatisfied with it; the only needed to recognize the shortcomings therein. The ebb-and-flow of these movements makes me wonder if the arts are inherently unable to characterize and embody the human experience. I don't see any reason why that must be true, but the notion that people have been identifying and responding to the shortcomings of their broader artistic environments since the dawn of art itself makes me contemplative. Perhaps it's simply that the human experience itself is in a constant state of flux.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#36

Post by humanrebar »

mikeash wrote: post #31
hguant wrote: post #19

I don't see how this is news. Alan Moore has been decrying and hating on superheroes for the entirety of his career, for largely the same reasons throughout. This is great when it's communicated through his work - showing what comics could be without superheroes, or critiquing the genre from within (Watchmen and Marvelman/Miracleman reboot come to mind), but his personal disdain for the consumers of his products is o…

I think some of it is just a change in the terms we use. Take Guardians of the Galaxy for example. A fun superhero movie! Except it’s really just a science fiction movie that avoids the “SF” term. It’s pretty similar to something like Star Wars in terms of the characters and technologies shown... but for some reason, Luke Skywalker isn’t a “superhero.” Or consider the Greek myths. Instead of superheroes, they had “go…

I agree with the Greek mythology point, I just made the same one in anther comment.

But I wouldn't consider Guardians or Star Wars to be science fiction since "what if" is not a huge element of either. I'd consider each to be "space operas" and have more in common with adventures (Indiana Jones, The Mummy), fantasy (magicians and monsters), or Westerns than science fiction proper.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#37

Post by the-dude »

megaman22 wrote: post #23
brad0 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read recently that studios are making more movies aimed at the 50s+ female crowd. The movies are about being single woman and the dating scene at that age. The reason they made these films is because the 60+ woman demographic is the highest spending right now. People want to see their own experiences reflected in cinema. I can't join in my head how westerns were a reflection of young and middle aged males. Possibly…

I think Westerns were relatively cheap to produce, at the time. Lots of open spaces to film in not far from Hollywood, lots of horses still easily obtainable, cheap costumes, not much in the way of special effects.

Notable westerns were shot in Spain ( Once upon in the west comes to mind ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_shot_in_Almer%C3...

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#38

Post by agumonkey »

brad0 wrote: post #18
agumonkey wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's complex but also nonsensical. Lots of young adults report scam jobs as reason why they don't work (not slacker kind of avoidance). It's a bit a cancerous era IMO. Too many uncertainties, too many technical possibilities, not enough social tissue.

> not enough social tissue Bang on. I think technology (not just the internet kind) has advanced so quickly that none of our social conventions have been able to keep up to help people. I believe both the democrats and republicans have lost their way a bit - they'll both be spending their time playing big-data social media games to get in power rather than actually trying to give things people want and need. > scam j…

It's a plausible factor. I know I'm not adjusted to the mess of the real world. But the documentary I watched talked about actively toying on elders fears and limits to sell them anything; with malevolent manager pressure.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#39

Post by humanrebar »

jv22222 wrote: post #13
Theodores wrote: post #3

It sounds like Alan Moore has had enough of the media and journalists. Well meaning that they may be individually they are collectively like a passive-aggressive narcissist eager to latch on to the slightest thing to bring the man down. It sounds to me that he just wants to get out of this abusive relationship and get on with his life. The point of the article - that there is something weird about grown adults and th…

> talk about how great the acting, story and everything else was, as if it was serious art that they had seen. IMHO Luke Cage and Jessica Jones by Marvel on Netflix are very well done on every level and compare well to other high quality drama series.

I think you're overselling Luke Cage, but I guess most of the dramas cranked out these days are pretty cheesy. Luke Cage did have its moments and good aspects, but the second half of the season was a huge mess.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#40

Post by usrusr »

andy_wrote wrote: post #16
brad0 wrote: post #14

Half formed thought, but are today's superheroes last generation's Clint Eastwood/Steve McQueen/John Wayne?

I have sometimes looked at old cinema and wondered, "Why did they make so many Westerns?" I figure that in some decades people will be looking at our time and asking, "Why did they make so many superhero movies?"

> I figure that in some decades people will be looking at our time and asking, "Why did they make so many superhero movies?"

Is that something we don't ask ourselves today? Why wait decades?

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