Just in case this converges into normality (if it becomes), how do you think this could affect to investment of tech startups in Barcelona area?
Startups should take this question very seriously, if in their future plans are expecting to sell anything, the tiniest of their products or services, to the rest of Spaniards.
Tech people working for the regional government to promote the independence of Catalonia were basically fired a few hours ago by the president Rajoy. They have a problem now (but are available again).
This mischaracterization is very common. The phallacy is framing the people against nationalism as nationalists. It's the same dirty trick as saying that atheism is just another kind of religion. Of course you add the "extreme-right" insult for good measure. Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind. That's just a lie. Nationalist votes are, being most generous under 10% of national grand total. People op…
> Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind. So, according to your point, the people who wants Catalans stay Spanish at any cost and tries to deny their right of a referendum are the "non nationalist". And the ones who are fed up of the BS of the Spanish government and just want to stop being Spanish are the Nationalist...
So, according to your point, the people who wants Catalans stay Spanish at any cost and tries to deny their right of a referendum are the "non nationalist".
Catalans that want to be Spanish, I'm OK they stay Spanish. The rest I don't give a rat ass. Actually there's nothing preventing them NOW to give up citizenship and become citizens of whatever unsuspecting country that accepts them as nationals.
If they want to steal a piece of my country to have their rave there, then we do have a problem
I'm under the impression the only way an independence vote could be legal is if the Spanish Constitution was changed to allow that. The current constitution declares Spain "indivisible", with no more specific details. That would seem to pretty clearly exclude any possibility of a part of Spain legally separating from Spain. The UK's legal system is a little slipperier. UK doesn't have a hard and fast Constitution. If…
It's interesting how this stems from a cultural difference. In very general terms, the UK is based on common law, in which we decide the truth as we go, based on the decisions of parliament and court cases. Spain and France are based on civil law, which are much more rigid and top-down, but also more clearly defined. In civil law, if it's not explicitly declared illegal, you can do it. In common law, it's a little mu…
Actually our Constitution states that Spain is indivisible for a reason. We had some rebel "cantons" in XIX century and a few revolutions in XX, so when we voted a new Consitution in 1978, it was decided to secure the union in the highest law. Of course you can modify the Constitution and there are legal ways to reach a consensus for that. It's just more difficult than holding an illegal, rigged referendum because some rogue regional politicians think they're entitled to it.
Those are all valid points. But why didn't Spain support a referendum like Canada supported Quebec twice and the UK with Scotland? Like the OP said, this could all have been stopped if Spain had supported the vote and campaigned for the no. How could Catalonia get a 'legal' vote?
Well it is not so easy. First, they will need to modify the constitution, which requires being approved a qualified majority not a simple one in parliament, in this case, is 3/5 of the parliament this reform might need to be approved by referendum (all the country not just Catalunya) in case a tenth of the parliament requires it. Second, the government has no desire to modify the current regional system, which is in…
Second, the government has no desire to modify the current regional system,
Sorry, I need to correct that. Not just the govern, an overwhelming majority of citizens in this country have no desire to modify the current regional system. At least in the direction that separatists want.
Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…
Let’s say you’re black in the American south before 1868, or South Africa before 1993. Voting or any sort of civic duty is illegal for you. Does that mean that you shouldn’t be allowed to vote? I am NOT saying Catalonians are oppressed the way blacks were in the American south or South Africa. Please don’t misunderstand. I’m purposefully using a more extreme example to illustrate that this is a moral, not legal quest…
Self-determination is a fundamental human right, by the philosophy of the Enlightenment at least.
That's very misleading. Persons have rights. Countries haven't. United Nations chart acknowledged collective right to self determination in the case of colonized countries as a way to give freedom to millions of individuals living in countries that were controled by western rich countries by force. But by no means a country has claimed ever that there's a general right for an arbitrary territory to secede if its inhabitants decide so by voting. There is overwhelming evidence against that alledged "right". No country would accept that. What about yours? What do you think will happen if a region of your country decides to hold a vote to leave the rest?
Because the central government refuses to allow for a real referendum. But tell me, how do I vote for "yes" independence if, say, I only agree with the political program of the socialist party, not part of the "yes" coalition? Parliamentary elections are one thing, referendums another.
Because the central government refuses to allow for a real referendum. This is tiresome. Central government has not the power to refuse or allow a referendum to decide to commit a crime. Exactly the same as police has not the power to declare drugs legal. Please, if you really really want to have a rational conversation, stop parroting politicians' excuses. There are the basics, like "sensible people doesn't riot and…
Please stop playing semantics: the central government has the power to trigger a Constitution change to allow for referendums. So far it has refused.
It has the power to send police to stop voting in a non-legal referendum, and it has done exactly so.
>miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. To me, it seems your characterization of "true point" adds layers of abstractions such as "nationalists" and "right-wing movements" . Sure, you're writing text that can be considered "correct" but it actually doesn't h…
On tangential note, California should secede from US.
And assuming it happened, how would California protect its borders from its neighbor US?