Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

711–720 of 785 posts

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#711

Post by gonvaled »

narag wrote: post #403
mvdwoord wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard this line of reasoning a lot, also in Dutch politics, but I disagree with it. General elections are too broad to pick any issue and simply state that the votes on the parties that hold a certain position on that issue are representative of the voters' position. If you want to know about x, hold a referendum on x, not a general election on the whole alphabet.

Except it was them who stated it would be a referendum by other name.

Because the central government refuses to allow for a real referendum.

But tell me, how do I vote for "yes" independence if, say, I only agree with the political program of the socialist party, not part of the "yes" coalition?

Parliamentary elections are one thing, referendums another.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#712

Post by _Tev »

smcl wrote: post #626
_Tev wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws are usually there for a reason. You could apply your whole argument to public opinion and referendums - public will change mind a lot, why make such drastic moves based on it?

Usually laws are there for a reason. Then sometimes we have to repeal "slavery is OK" or "black people count for 3/5 of white people" or "women can't vote" laws. Because they're obviously wrong.

Ok that's a good point. I guess I am too spoiled by modern mostly-making-sense laws and annoyed by the neverending "government is bad" rants.

On the other hand, public supported all those "bad" laws at the time ... But yeah, I was wrong, illegality on its own is wrong argument.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#713

Post by 6t6t6t6 »

narag wrote: post #497
alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

This mischaracterization is very common. The phallacy is framing the people against nationalism as nationalists. It's the same dirty trick as saying that atheism is just another kind of religion. Of course you add the "extreme-right" insult for good measure. Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind. That's just a lie. Nationalist votes are, being most generous under 10% of national grand total. People op…

> Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind.

So, according to your point, the people who wants Catalans stay Spanish at any cost and tries to deny their right of a referendum are the "non nationalist". And the ones who are fed up of the BS of the Spanish government and just want to stop being Spanish are the Nationalist...

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#714

Post by 6t6t6t6 »

pvaldes wrote: post #496
microcolonel wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to see how quickly people will downplay and deny the actions of the Guardia Incivil. If the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it? ;- )

Because they were planning to spend millions of euro in an illegal thing. Money directly stolen from people like you and me.

Having 11.000 Spanish policemen in Catalonia, including the ones in the Lonely Tones ship, costs 33M EUR a day.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#715

Post by philwelch »

alexandrerond wrote: post #671
philwelch wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a general principle, I think Catalan independence is a question for the Catalans to decide. As a foreigner, it's not my place to have an opinion on another country's self-determination. I am troubled that Spain suppressed the referendum, because it seems out of step with the behavior of other liberal, democratic, Western states. For example, Scotland and Quebec were both allowed to have referendums, and while the…

I'm not very sold on saying that Catalonia is an "ethnic nation" (or comparable to Kosovo like some claim), but I mostly agree. I wish the referendum would have been legal, and that independence, with a support from the majority of the Catalan population, could happen orderly if need be, with Catalonia staying as a EU member state. However, with a right-wing government in Spain, this path is not possible. More autono…

The question becomes, then, to what extent a separatist movement should respect the wishes of a right-wing central government to deny self-determination. As a political calculation, maybe a coalition with liberals and other separatists could result in a central government amenable to a referendum; on the other hand, if this is the first time they’ve had a referendum, that would mean they’ve waited since at least the Spanish Civil War, and that’s a lot of patience.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#716

Post by pvaldes »

turc1656 wrote: post #565
alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

Let's be real for a minute. The reason this is as large of an issue is the same reason that there are very, very few peaceful secessions throughout history. Even then, "peaceful" is relative - there may not be full on war, but there are always "incidents". That reason is simple - there is no way to legally split from Spain. Things are specifically designed this way to always provide the ruling faction with the abilit…

> there is no way to legally split from Spain

There is a relatively simple way and in fact people do it all the time: emigrate to your ideal paradise or model of country and ask to be accepted as citizen there. Is easy when you are rich.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#717

Post by memracom »

The problem is that this independence movement is not really an independence movement. In the modern world, no political entity can truly be independent. All are dependent on their neighbors.

True independence became extinct when people stopped living subsistence agricultural lives.

So the Catalan issue is more about how the EU is structured and whether nation states are the appropriate level of division for the different territories in the EU.

Even outside the EU, nation states like Ukraine cannot be independent because they have too much dependency on Russia, the USA, China, Turkey and so on.

Sovereignty is another question, but confusing it with independence is wrong.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#718

Post by Findeton »

kgwgk wrote: post #660
Findeton wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I mean that, even under the Catalan separatist view of legality, this resolution is not a law.

True. It makes you wonder what are they celebrating then.

They are probably celebrating their nationalism.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#719

Post by narag »

gonvaled wrote: post #711
narag wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it was them who stated it would be a referendum by other name.

Because the central government refuses to allow for a real referendum. But tell me, how do I vote for "yes" independence if, say, I only agree with the political program of the socialist party, not part of the "yes" coalition? Parliamentary elections are one thing, referendums another.

Because the central government refuses to allow for a real referendum.

This is tiresome. Central government has not the power to refuse or allow a referendum to decide to commit a crime. Exactly the same as police has not the power to declare drugs legal. Please, if you really really want to have a rational conversation, stop parroting politicians' excuses. There are the basics, like "sensible people doesn't riot and attack police for a marginally relevant tax complaint or alledged cultural peculiarity" and if you can understand that this is the foundation, you should consider the possibility that someone is fooling you.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#720

Post by narag »

dan_mctree wrote: post #481
narag wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response. That's absolutely wrong. And thinking that Spain will need to fire on civilians is ridiculous. Either wishful thinking or you are ridiculously misinformed.

We've seen police/military fire into people in many places during protests recently. The Ukranian Maidan protests, in Egypt, Turkey and of course Syria. Why would Spain be immune to events like these while the people are easily as riled up as they were in Ukraine? Spain happens to have a history of civil war too. All it takes is for armed police/military to meet large angry crowds that won't back down. If Spain sends…

We've seen police/military fire into people in many places during protests recently. The Ukranian Maidan protests, in Egypt, Turkey and of course Syria.

I know nothing of Maidan protests. Spain has nothing to do with Egypt, Turkey or Syria. If Spain was remotely similar, every separatist would be jailed and we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

Why would Spain be immune to events like these while the people are easily as riled up as they were in Ukraine? Spain happens to have a history of civil war too.

This is terribly unfair. Worse. It's wrong. Not that our grandparents hadn't a civil war (they had) but the fact that this is any indication of environmental violence. Actually it's a disgusting unwarranted attack on an entire country.

All it takes is for armed police/military to meet large angry crowds that won't back down.

Police did meet angry crowds that won't back down last october 1st. There weren't shots or deads.

If Spain sends the military to arrest the Catalonian government, we may end up with both of the ingredients.

Spain would not send military to arrest someone. It would send police like any other regular country. If rogue regional police will shoot them, then we're not talking about an arrest, but about a full-blown armed rebellion. So please, stop spreading confusion.

Post reply on HN