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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#701

Post by DiThi »

sigotirandolas wrote: post #696
DiThi wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this? http://www.ames-fps.com/adoctrinamiento_libros_sociales_5y6p... Or maybe the many accusations of events like this one http://baluartedigital.opennemas.com/articulo/separatismo/vi...

The first link seems to be the most solid proof that unionist parties like Ciudadanos use to ask for investigating the Catalan school system for indoctrination (An investigation I think could be done, as long as there's enough guarantees that it will be impartial and not a witchhunt). It was made by a syndicate that seems to be pretty much nonexistent (see https://www.ara.cat/societat/denuncia-ladoctrinament-llibres.…

I agree that some arguments of the report don't hold water. But others are more convincing to me. Note that they analyze textbooks that are sold in stores, not stuff made by random teachers.

About the anecdote, a single case... there have been at least a couple dozen reported. Who knows how many were unreported. Even if they're kind of isolated, they show what kind of environment may exist in some places.

Personally I don't care, I don't have any stake on the matters. I don't like either side.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#702

Post by ryuker16 »

microcolonel wrote: post #567
ryuker16 wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But most of those small arms suck. In Vietnam and Afghanistan they had weapons being sent to them including stuff like artillery and mortars. A bunch of militia with store bought guns(many pistols or hunting rifles) doesn't really compare to guys supplied with full automatics and RPGs.

Consider also that there are arms manufacturers and state militias all across the country. If it's California, they have (some of) Northrop Grumman. If it's Virginia, they have General Dynamics Mission Systems.

You really think in a rebellion they would allow them to legally sell guns in mass quantities?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#703

Post by farresito »

narag wrote: post #572
farresito wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are people supposed to take you seriously if you call us entitled rich kids. How ignorant. Care to explain what this real mambo is supposed to be? Sending the military?

You don't need to take me seriously and I couldn't care less. The "mambo" is an expression that CUP and the like have used to define violence in the streets. So if you want any further definition ask your friends. What I think will happen? Apart from what they themselves will do, nothing. Public officers, including regional police, won't resist since their payroll depends on them obeying orders. Politicians might pla…

They are not my friends, thank you.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#704

Post by gonvaled »

simias wrote: post #502
gonvaled wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is exactly the problem. A state constitution which is unable to adapt to a changing society is destined to irrelevance. Authority emanates from people, not from papers.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you think the majority of spaniards would support amending the constitution to allow for a region to declare independence? Seems really dubious to me. And if not, then why blame the constitution?

I mean a Constitution is not, and must not be, respected if it goes against the will of a big part of the population.

A state constitution must offer a framework which is interesting for all of its peoples and territories: if big groups of people do not see the point of it, it looses its validity.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#705

Post by gonvaled »

bad_user wrote: post #511
gonvaled wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is exactly the problem. A state constitution which is unable to adapt to a changing society is destined to irrelevance. Authority emanates from people, not from papers.

No dude, authority emanates from armies, which are never irrelevant. And the writing is on the wall. I hope the Catalans that voted to leave have really good reasons to do it, because if the situation isn't defused somehow, there are some tough times ahead.

That is true for primitive societies. Modern, civiliced societies do not resort to violence when they lose the war of words and persuassion.

It is not clear we are in a modern era.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#706

Post by pvaldes »

logfromblammo wrote: post #667
pvaldes wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how they faked those videos. 1) challenge police for two or three hours or directly harass them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VochqAemgP0 2) keep the challenge until triggering a reaction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0GwYEfTgzw 3) Good job, now film it 4) Upload the parts that support your discourse to internet, carefully hiding half of the history

So you are not disputing that the people who appear to be police are genuinely police, or that they actually engaged in violence against people engaged in a (nominally) peaceful protest against the authority of the national government? If a real cop really hit a person, and that resulted in real injury, that's not a fake video. I think it's impressive that a Spanish cop can hold out for two hours of continuous abuse…

> The apparent victims were not as injured as they appeared to be

"Policemen broke deliberately all my fingers one to one and throw me down the stairs".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYl054MItd8

Video shows later that policemen grab her by the right hand. For some reason the bandage is in her left hand. Hospital report explained later that one finger was "sored", I don't know the exact term for capsulitis in english but is not "broken". The other nine were, fortunately, fine. I let you to decide how to calificate the stairs part claim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zBwNifMxYg

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#707

Post by nemo44x »

ben_w wrote: post #678
StreamBright wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US army is not authorized to operate on US soil. I like how you want to drag this conversation into something totally else.

I’m not American, I didn’t know that, and given this is a hypothetical anyway I don’t really think that restriction matters.

Then what is the alternative? Wouldn’t you rather die with the honor of defending you and your families liberty than live under an oppressive regime?

The argument that “the government is too strong they’d beat you with your puny guns” is so incredibly short sighted. You’re discounting the power the rifle gives the people not only as a weapon but a symbol of freedom and revolution. An armed society is a deterrent at the very least.

Mozambique’s flag has an AK47 on it for a reason.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#708

Post by gonvaled »

fasteo wrote: post #598
gonvaled wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they feel they have a mandate? Or said differently, what would you do? You campaigned for it, organized a referendum, won it and now you do not follow through? What would your voters say?

>>> Because they feel they have a mandate? This is basically what they say, but this only appeal the people's emotions, making them appear as altruist servants of the Catalonian people. Sorry, I am too old to believe in fairytales. No offense.

Don"t follow you. Are you are too old to believe in the fairy tale of honestly implementing your campaign promises, so you prefer the proven method of lying to the ellectorate?

What honest politicians you old realists aspire to: those in the respectable business of doing whatever they want to, completely disregarding any promises made?

I bet you also welcome corruption since, you know, how would anyone believe in, or even aspire to, the "fairy tale" of uncorruptible polititians!

You are certainly a sensible realist!

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#709

Post by _Tev »

syrgian wrote: post #404
alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

Well, while the Catalan politicians will indeed enjoy power and fame if they win, they face a very unpromising future if they fail, such as prison and asset seizure. I doubt it is a rational, cost-efficient choice to support the independence. On the other hand, the Spanish/pro-union politicians are untouchable and the risks they take, much lower.

This is weird point that gets repeated all the time - sure, Spanish politicians have lower risks, but their potential gains are also much lower - best one seems "more political power", which is awfully short term (and the loses when they fail could be large). Catalan politicians are playing high risk / high gain game. You can't really say any side has it better.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#710

Post by gonvaled »

_Tev wrote: post #494
lottin wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you think "not caring" means being against independence. I think it means not caring either way, i.e. they're neither in favour of it nor against it.

I think it is reckless to change borders just because few people want to. This is not your standard political issue, it's freaking tearing the country apart.

Why is a border so sacred for you? A border is there to serve people, not the other way around.
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