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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#641

Post by smcl »

narag wrote: post #354
smcl wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carefully worded answer. To those who might take narag's words at face value, they're probably referring the 2014 referendum where voters were asked "do you want to Catalonia to be a state" and "and if so, do you want it to be independent". The result was 80% of the results were "yes" for both but the turnout was low (40-ish percent). I don't think that is exactly decisive for either side, but to claim it as a win fo…

No, I was refering to regular regional ellections that separatists considered "plebiscitary".

Ah I thought you were referring to a vote on independence? How about a vote on independence instead?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#642

Post by tassl »

alexandrerond wrote: post #510
narag wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mischaracterization is very common. The phallacy is framing the people against nationalism as nationalists. It's the same dirty trick as saying that atheism is just another kind of religion. Of course you add the "extreme-right" insult for good measure. Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind. That's just a lie. Nationalist votes are, being most generous under 10% of national grand total. People op…

I didn't frame anyone. I just said that the people calling the shots in this conflict are nationalists. In fact, I'm saying the majority of non-nationalistic people are just hostages in this fight, which are only good to convert more people to the cause.

You are confusing independence with nationalism. You can be pro-independence without being nationalist.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#643

Post by kgwgk »

tomjen3 wrote: post #570
gsnedders wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But their constitution wasn't written with modern times in mind. 1978 really wasn't that long ago. I'd call 1978 modern times!

Counterpoint: it is only a year after their facist dictator died: Germany in 45 and 95 were very different places.

1978-1975=3

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#644

Post by smcl »

_Tev wrote: post #494
lottin wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you think "not caring" means being against independence. I think it means not caring either way, i.e. they're neither in favour of it nor against it.

I think it is reckless to change borders just because few people want to. This is not your standard political issue, it's freaking tearing the country apart.

This is not a few people mucking around on a map for fun. Although for an example of that, see Britain and France carving up the middle east with a ruler last century. This is people voting for their own future, it is vastly different.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#645

Post by kgwgk »

robrenaud wrote: post #560
_r_o_y_ wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you should use the process laid by the constitution to change it, not unilaterally decide the law doesn't apply to you.

This argument seems a little bunk to me. Certainly my nation (US) wouldn't exist if they followed this logic.

It wouldn’t exist either if unionists had not fought and won a war against secessionists.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#646

Post by microcolonel »

narag wrote: post #581
microcolonel wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to see how quickly people will downplay and deny the actions of the Guardia Incivil. If the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it? ;- )

If the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it? ;- ) If murder is illegitimate, why suppress it? Brilliant.

If you could save murder victims retroactively by just not recognizing the murder, this analogy might land.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#647

Post by pvaldes »

tassl wrote: post #638
pvaldes wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people does not understand that the independence referendum is a MacGuffin here. Not the main goal. Is just a symbol of power. Another step to bend the arm of the central government again, not the end of the agenda. Catalonian people had another referendum in 2016, plus one free elections in between. Is insane to keep asking for a referendum each 6 months until independence is forced

That's not true. There was no referendum in 2016 and there is no "keep asking for a referendum" because the only referendum held was 1-O, and did not come from an agreement with Spanish government. If Spain would have agreed on a referendum, the current situation would be very different.

You are right, it was in november 2014, not 2016. My bad. Time flies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_ref...

Thanks for the correction

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#648

Post by thecrazyone »

jasode wrote: post #507
alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

>miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. To me, it seems your characterization of "true point" adds layers of abstractions such as "nationalists" and "right-wing movements" . Sure, you're writing text that can be considered "correct" but it actually doesn't h…

On tangential note, California should secede from US.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#649

Post by smcl »

_Tev wrote: post #484
maksimum wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in this case it was If you want to be independent you go vote. If you do not care, or are afraid of getting hammered by Spanish police you stay home. In that case 43% turnout is pretty impressive.

Read the GP. What oppression was there in 2014?

So if you want independence in 2017 ... travel back in time three years?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#650

Post by cat199 »

narag wrote: post #497
alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

This mischaracterization is very common. The phallacy is framing the people against nationalism as nationalists. It's the same dirty trick as saying that atheism is just another kind of religion. Of course you add the "extreme-right" insult for good measure. Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind. That's just a lie. Nationalist votes are, being most generous under 10% of national grand total. People op…

theology: speech about god

atheism: speech about god

atheism has a theology and is a belief system, therefore it is a religion.

I'll reconsider my view when people routinely say 'oh reason' or 'oh science' while winning sport championships, hitting their knees in the dark, or having orgasms. in the meantime, my thesis is there is a reason something else comes out..

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