Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#461

Post by notyourday » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

ensignavenger wrote: post #157

jannes wrote: post #64

The senate in Madrid just voted to trigger article 155 of the Spanish constitution, which allows them to cancel the regional government. That should stop tax money flowing... I could only find an article in Spanish as it only happened a few minutes ago: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=http... Edit: Looks like the BBC has updated the article to include this now.

If they just declared independence, why would they expect tax money from the government they just separated from?

No one ever went broke acting on politicians not being the sharpest people around.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#462

Post by pnathan » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

fusiongyro wrote: post #272

smcl wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice catch 22 - between (2) and (8). You are allowed to secede if you vote for it ... but you're not allowed to vote to secede.

Is there a legal way for US states to secede?

We had a war about this. No.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#463

Post by taejo » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:33 PM UTC

flamedoge wrote: post #232

TallGuyShort wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…

How to solve voter turnout? free donuts?

Make elections legitimate and meaningful.

Turnout is low in Catalan independence referenda and US elections for different reasons. The former are viewed by opponents of independence as illegitimate: they are not approved by the central government and voting in them gives them the appearance of legitimacy. They're political tactic by the independence movement, and its opponents won't participate. The Spanish government could solve this by allowing an election, pledging to take the result seriously, and thereby answer the question for at least a generation.

A significant factor in low turnout in US elections can be explained by the non-competitiveness of elections (correlation coefficient between turnout and margin by state was -0.4 in the last presidential election). If more states were competitive or the president were elected by popular vote (or Congress by proportional representation), turnout might be very different.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#464

Post by lottin » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

_Tev wrote: post #320

smcl wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carefully worded answer. To those who might take narag's words at face value, they're probably referring the 2014 referendum where voters were asked "do you want to Catalonia to be a state" and "and if so, do you want it to be independent". The result was 80% of the results were "yes" for both but the turnout was low (40-ish percent). I don't think that is exactly decisive for either side, but to claim it as a win fo…

If you want to be independent you go and vote. If you do not care you stay home. Such low turnout seems like a win for "no" camp, because people of Catalonia apparently do not care about independence from Spain.

Only if you think "not caring" means being against independence. I think it means not caring either way, i.e. they're neither in favour of it nor against it.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#465

Post by pvaldes » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #412

pvaldes wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal Not, this is a lie. Was not the government that declared it illegal. Were the judges of the hightest spanish tribunal, because in their opinion this is a disguised coup against constitution. > Once they had the massive yes vote the only way out to the evil government is to surrender and negociate... Another thousand times…

Not sure why you feel the need to use slavery or communist as an example here, instead of, for instance, secessionist. Maybe you expect to elicit a sense of horror in your readers?

Well, some of the ingredients here are the comrades of the self claimed anticapitalist party Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP) asking for some veeery peculiar things, (i.e. proposing to expropriate the Cathedral of Barcelona to make a market and a school of music there), and there was also a larvate (and sometimes not so larvate) racism and harassment against non indepentendist spaniards that last for years.

Taking all of this in mind and much other things, I think that can be taken as a fair example. Not equal, but much closer than you could expect.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#466

Post by slaymaker1907 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:35 PM UTC

lacion wrote: post #456

TallGuyShort wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…

this is true for many countries. as an example, the US constitution does not allow secession either. many countries had civil wars for unification long time ago, hence why secession is not allowed constitutionally in a bunch of them.

You have to keep in mind that the civil war was over 150 years ago and the mood is quite different now. As a US citizen, I couldn't really tell you whether a state seceding would be met with war as in the past or if they would be allowed to quietly leave the union. There is always one state or another where some people think about it, and it seems like these discussions are never met with the hostility that Spain has shown to Catalonia.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#467

Post by dang » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:38 PM UTC

kolbe wrote: post #458

diego_moita wrote: post #276

Canadian perspective here. We also had our troubles with separatism. Back from the 60's till the late 90's Quebec had very good and valid reasons to separate from Canada, mostly because of prejudice against their language and culture. They came very close to separating from Canada in 2 referenda. A few things decreased these tensions: compromise, increased economic dependence, immigration and cultural change within Q…

The lesson here: allow the Chinese to create a real estate bubble, so your country can have the economic resources to placate and pay off places you've colonized. Within a decade of the Canadian real estate bubble pop, Quebec will be an independent nation. Mark my words.

Would you please stop posting flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? We have enough trouble with flamewars as it is, and you've unfortunately been doing this quite a bit. If you'd read the guidelines and stick to them when commenting here, we'd appreciate it: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#468

Post by kabouseng » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:39 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #274

adrinavarro wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "half" is often said: - 2015 elections were considered "plebiscitary", i.e. in absence of a referendum, pro-independence parties ran together as one "yes to independence" vote. They obtained 39.6% of the vote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_regional_election,_201... - Added together to radical left (anti-capitalist, pro-independence) parties, it adds up to 47.8% of the vote. With ~75% turnout. ~35% of cens…

Well, the "half" is a way of simplifying. Next elections will show an updated numbers. The reason I say half is that it's nonsense to pretend that approximately half of a population should be enough to bully the other half into a revolution that could cause a blood bath and creating millions of extrangers in their own country.

It's funny because it seems "half" of Spain is bullying the other "half" of Spain to stay part of... Spain.

*Half here is an approximation

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#469

Post by noahl » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:40 PM UTC

bnastic wrote: post #454

flexie wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot imagine that it ends in a civil war. Civil wars happen when you have 1) a lot of young men, 2) who have little to lose, and 3) who are used to living a life with not much more comfort than that of a soldier (maybe even less) The young generation in Catalonia is small, they have a lot to lose, and they live very comfortable lives. I don't see them taking up arms. Maybe they will take to the streets for a few…

Those three points aren't valid for any of the civil wars I witnessed first hand

Could you expand on that, please?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#470

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:42 PM UTC

tom_mellior wrote: post #455

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's actually a tougher call than you suggest, allowing the referendum to resolve could easily foment more unrest and a greater more violent outcome. I would not have ordered such action, FWIW.

> I think it's actually a tougher call than you suggest No. "Police should only beat people as a last resort to keep them from causing direct, immediate bodily harm to others" is not a tough call at all. Even if having police present was a good idea (it wasn't), they should have had the strictest orders to, you know, not hit people with sticks. > allowing the referendum to resolve could easily foment more unrest and…

OK, AIUI the law in Spain means that only central gov can order a referendum. The vote was declared illegal and those party to it were thus breaking the law, conspiring to harm the constitutional standing of the country.

If you were voting, supporting voters, etc., you were breaking the law, refusal to stop is contravening the law and the police should then act accordingly, using force if people refuse to stop supporting the vote.

Imagine it was an illegal march of white supremacists in USA, or National Front in UK.

It devolves into violence when people choose to ignored the rule of law and give no other option to maintain the law than to apply violence.

Unless the separatists want to negotiate then violence is literally the only recourse that Spain has to defend its constitution. Perhaps it shouldn't, but anything else is just letting an undemocratic action force an unwanted change.