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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#401

Post by RobertoG »

narag wrote: post #321
antaviana wrote: post #154

It's been a bit of bad luck what happened. On the Spanish side, the party at the Government did not have enough votes to freely apply their own policies. By helping provoke a polarizing crisis, they hugely improve their chances for an absolute majority to improve their power position should there be an election in Spain. Had they negotiated with Catalan Government, their future chances for a huge win would be a lot l…

In short, both parties ruling on both sides believe that they benefit greatly from confrontation No, that's wrong. The reason we have the current clusterf * in place has been the conflict-avoiding actitude of 40 years of spanish governments. We have a proportional voting systems and regional parties have been the "hinge", the small parties that helped ruling parties to reach absolute majority, in national parliament.…

Surely, you have your own brand or brainwashing in mind when it's you who want to control the education.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#402

Post by heavenlyblue »

xtreme wrote: post #329
heavenlyblue wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the whole of the country subsidising the more wealthy region by things like brain-drain and leanier taxation? What would happen if California were to separate from the US? Who would afford their army? What about billions invested by the whole of US in the industries there? By your logic I may just reply that "if the people want independence now - then all that matters if I have enough military power to kee…

> all that matters if I have enough military power to keep them in the saddle That's pretty much how most declarations of independence have worked historically. But even if you have enough military power, how much blood are you willing to shed if a full blown civil war breaks out? If there are civilian deaths, it's likely that there would be condemnation and support for the separatists from the international communit…

Please see the parent comment. My opinion here is in regards to "what matters to what happened 1000 years ago? what matters is what they want now!" - by making a point that what happened years ago does indeed have some value.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#403

Post by narag »

mvdwoord wrote: post #394
narag wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last election had a majority of votes to parties that didn't proposed independence, that's a hard fact, not an opinion. And as you will soon learn, there is no need to settle that question, it was settled long ago.

I have heard this line of reasoning a lot, also in Dutch politics, but I disagree with it. General elections are too broad to pick any issue and simply state that the votes on the parties that hold a certain position on that issue are representative of the voters' position. If you want to know about x, hold a referendum on x, not a general election on the whole alphabet.

Except it was them who stated it would be a referendum by other name.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#404

Post by syrgian »

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

Well, while the Catalan politicians will indeed enjoy power and fame if they win, they face a very unpromising future if they fail, such as prison and asset seizure. I doubt it is a rational, cost-efficient choice to support the independence.

On the other hand, the Spanish/pro-union politicians are untouchable and the risks they take, much lower.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#405

Post by microcolonel »

6t6t6t6 wrote: post #199
narag wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum That's wrong. There were a handful of injured, don't believe the propaganda. Most international media that were fooled by that lies have acknowledged this much.

I will just leave this here: https://spanishpolice.github.io/

It's interesting to see how quickly people will downplay and deny the actions of the Guardia Incivil.

If the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it? ;- )

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#406

Post by Kostic »

joaomval wrote: post #165
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

How many countries got independent legally?

From my own short experience, FYROM from Yugoslavia and Montenegro from Serbia.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#407

Post by heavenlyblue »

dougmany wrote: post #364
heavenlyblue wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the whole of the country subsidising the more wealthy region by things like brain-drain and leanier taxation? What would happen if California were to separate from the US? Who would afford their army? What about billions invested by the whole of US in the industries there? By your logic I may just reply that "if the people want independence now - then all that matters if I have enough military power to kee…

> ? What about billions invested by the whole of US in the industries there? I would say they got what they paid for. Satellites and computers have been delivered. Investment paid off.

Satellites and computers have been delivered. Now get back us all of our specialists and the infrastructure.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#408

Post by erikpukinskis »

zeveb wrote: post #304
fusiongyro wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a legal way for US states to secede?

The 10th Amendment reads 'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.' The Constitution is silent on secession: it neither forbids it nor lays out procedures for it. Since the power to remove a State from the United States is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the respective States,…

If a state seceded then none of the constitution would apply in that jurisdiction, therefore secession very much violates the terms of the Constitution.

If you vote in a state government that claims to secede and then abridges my right to bear arms, then you have violated my rights under the Constitution. I don’t particularly care what state parliamentary procedure you think supersedes that right.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#409

Post by dragonwriter »

ctdonath wrote: post #300
platz wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then, what tactics does civilization require in order to hold together?

The US constitution has worked quite well (despite our penchant for drama) for a couple centuries. Oversimplified: recognize states as semi-autonomous, localize governance as much as possible, balance voting power to prevent "tyranny of the majority", emphasize individual rights & liberty. Too much of bossing around others does not end well.

> The US constitution has worked quite well (despite our penchant for drama) for a couple centuries

If you ignore the simmering dispute present at the founding that exploded into general crisis in the mid-19th Century and then into civil war, sure, you could maybe argue that it worked well for a couple of centuries.

But even so you'd have to ignore that the Constitution before and after that crisis are fairly radically different. (Though some of the significant differences saw no substantive effect until the 20th Century.)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#410

Post by narag »

lllllll wrote: post #260
narag wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That right is only for colonies or genocide, not the case of Catalonia at all. They're one of the richest spanish regions. Edit: they've neve been independent, that's more of the bs that we're hearing these days.

I believe that's a common misconception. UN charter makes no mention of colonies Art 1.2( http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.htm... ). Although a UN-charter-based document is applied to colonies, which is what you might be referring to.

There's no definition there, it's just mentioned and of course there's a complete definition elsewhere.
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