Earlier quoted context omitted.
The plan was laid out clearly. The question asked of the electorate was also clear. February 2016 The process for withdrawing from the European Union Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... 2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.…
I don’t think it’s valid to claim the non voters in an aggregate 65%. Otherwise you could say 68% of the country didn’t vote to leave. Which presumably means it was a stronger position. Edit - I see you removed that claim.
Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
251–260 of 785 posts
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#252It's not true, they haven't declared independence. This is a resolution proposal, which means it's not a law and it has no legal value (I mean, not even from the point of view of a pro-independence judge/lawyer). It's a proposal asking the Catalan government to declare independence. But it's fulfilling its purpose, which is to escalate things in a political sense while maintaining the status-quo in the legal realm: i…
My understanding from these articles is that the referendum was that -- a resolution proposal. But the most recent vote (70 for, 10 against, 2 abstains, out of 135 representatives) is a direct declaration of independence. I don't speak Spanish and I can't find any primary sources on it, but this is what all the news sources that I have seen are saying. If you have more information or citations, I'd love to see them.…
My sources? I am Spanish and I have friends who are lawyers.
EDIT: You mention the Catalan Gov's twitter. Well, of course, they will say whatever they want. Their aim is to provoke the Spanish government.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are allowed to vote to parties that want the secession and promise to vote for Constitution reform. The thing is people, even in Catalonia don't want independence. This question is presented over and over again as a Catalonia vs rest of Spain, when it's actually a debate that's not settled inside Catalonia. Parties that don't propose independence had less votes than the ones that do, the electoral system being th…
"The thing is people, even in Catalonia don't want independence" - in your opinion perhaps. Many others have a different opinion. But this is something that could easily be settled by ... a vote on independence.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
What about: - no threats to non pro-spain - more time before actual vote so people had time to actually come a rushed vote is bad
- Which threats has the Catalonian government issued? - Sure, but it's kinda hard to have an orderly vote when you have the National Guard descending on you and trying to stop it.
It's true Spain did wrong too.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#255What I do not understand is how the EU can stand by and watch as one of its member countries limits citizen freedom? Anybody should be able to hold a vote on anything they like. You should not be able to declare a referendum "illegal" (it might turn out that the results have no legal standing, but that doesn't make the vote or the voting itself "illegal"). I am worried that the EU doesn't hold true to its core values…
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#256What I do not understand is how the EU can stand by and watch as one of its member countries limits citizen freedom? Anybody should be able to hold a vote on anything they like. You should not be able to declare a referendum "illegal" (it might turn out that the results have no legal standing, but that doesn't make the vote or the voting itself "illegal"). I am worried that the EU doesn't hold true to its core values…
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#257Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…
What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.
What would happen if California were to separate from the US? Who would afford their army? What about billions invested by the whole of US in the industries there?
By your logic I may just reply that "if the people want independence now - then all that matters if I have enough military power to keep them in the saddle". Because the laws are changeable.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…
How to solve voter turnout? free donuts?
Of course, this will never happen with the current political structure of the US, as the Republican Party works to aggressively reduce total voter turnout everywhere it can.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
"You need to read history to understand the situation." That is true if we want to analyze the question of whether or not Catalan "should" be independent from Spain, a question so murky and shot through with political philosophy, theory, and pragmatics that even two sides that stipulate all the same facts can come to different conclusions. But for what johnnyfaehell was really getting at, which is a tactical and/or s…
So then, what tactics does civilization require in order to hold together?
But despite the failure, I'd point to Brexit as an example where there was a conflict that was still broadly speaking handled in a civilized manner. If I recall correctly, the EU never said that if the UK left, they would take steps to liquidate Parliament. It was (and is!) an acrimonious debate, but still a civilized one (contrary to apparently popular belief, "nice" and "civilized" are not synonyms and are at times diametrically opposed; at best "nice" is what can result from civilization, it is not the cause of civilization). And despite the fact Brexit narrowly passed, I guarantee that had the EU gone the route that Spain did, Brexit would not have narrowly passed, but passed by a wide margin.
Contrariwise, even with all of Spain's errors and provocations, by numbers it seems like Catalonian independence just barely has something like a majority, or narrowly misses a majority, despite the superficial voting numbers, and that I would imagine includes a lot of very squishy support. Let's call real support in the 40-60% range. Some emotional sweet talk in attempt to emphasize solidarity, combined with some threats about what "could" happen (both in terms of bad things that may happen economically and vague threats of retaliation from Spain) but with no actual violence threats, along with emphasizing that it is their choice ultimately, would probably have resulted in as much as a 2-1 defeat for the independence. If nothing else, even just an appeal to the status quo rather than the dangers of such a radical change has had some success as a political campaign ("don't change horses midstream" - relection slogan for Abraham Lincoln [1]). Convert that "squishy support" into "squishy rejection", and the numbers change a lot. I hope what I'm writing here makes it clear just how much of a wild-ass guess that is, rather than some sort of principled analysis; if your mileage varies, more power to you. My big claim is that it would have made the situation better moreso than the precise numbers.
That is an example. There were other approaches that would have done better. I'd also observe that the approach I'm proposing here strikes me as fairly European, with the emphasis on solidarity and such. I'm pretty sure I'd recommend a substantially different approach if we were discussing Texas secession.
I'd also point out that I'm not viewing successfully keeping Catalan in Spain as the end of history. The issues would still be there. "Something" would really have to be done about that. But all countries have stresses, and Quebec remains part of Canada to this day, for instance. The stresses don't have to explode.
(I've also read some analysis that suggests these actions would have been politically untenable for Spain's current leadership. So I'm talking about what Spain as a whole "should" have done, not what Spain's leadership necessarily could do. I still don't know where I fall in the "forces of history" vs. "big actors in history" debate, but I tend to think the answer is "yes, both by a lot".)
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._presidential_camp...
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because the alternative is forcible oppression and denial of the right of self-determination. Read more about the right of self-determination here: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957
That right is only for colonies or genocide, not the case of Catalonia at all. They're one of the richest spanish regions. Edit: they've neve been independent, that's more of the bs that we're hearing these days.