Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#131

Post by chrisbrowning » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #57

chrisbrowning wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better or for worse, there will be no independent Catalonia in the foreseeable future. About 40-50% of Catalans don't support this. The EU doesn't support this, no Western nation supports this (save maybe Russia if you consider them Western -- and even their position is unclear). Furthermore, Spain won't allow it, and they're the main actor in a position to do something about it. Even if Catalonia somehow manages…

Pardon my ignorance, but why would Russia support Catalan independence?

They see it as "payback" for the EU/Nato's support for Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence. Interestingly, Spain is probably the only Western nation that doesn't recognize Kosovo's independence.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#132

Post by gepi79 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

_jal wrote: post #77

harperlee wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. The last governments should not have ignored the problem, making instead an effort to provide objective information on what an independence entails. This is not something that you ca…

> indoctrination of former children that now can vote. That's an odd way to refer to that thing parents do when raising their kids. We call it 'talking' to them. You make it sound so sinister - almost like parents were passing on their religion or something.

Because "national pride" and "duty to fight for (economic) freedom" can be taught by your parents, schools and local culture as noble, absolute values and goals unrelated to any reason and discussion.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#133

Post by meddlepal » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #46

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

Pretty much every constitution makes secession unconstitutional.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#134

Post by tertius » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

vilmosi wrote: post #102

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

>>> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won The UK government thought like you. It allowed the people to vote for Brexit, thinking it would never pass. And here we are today.

> It allowed the people

Let's remember that it was not against the law of the EU or the UK...

So yes I think it should have.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#135

Post by rayiner » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

vilmosi wrote: post #102

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

>>> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won The UK government thought like you. It allowed the people to vote for Brexit, thinking it would never pass. And here we are today.

And that’s great. People have a right to self determination. Not just who they vote for, but who votes with them. Without it democracy is a sham.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#136

Post by jobu » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:31 PM UTC

harperlee wrote: post #56

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. The last governments should not have ignored the problem, making instead an effort to provide objective information on what an independence entails. This is not something that you ca…

The counter protests and polling indicate that there was/is significant opposition to Catalan independence. Spain could've embraced and supported that opposition, or pushed for more negotiation, but instead they used violence and oppression to try stopping the vote. That kept most of the anti-independence voters away from the polls, and it also turned many moderates toward independence. Now the Catalan government has a huge mandate and even more support to push for independence.

The Spanish government fucked up massively, and I wish the EU had more power to step in and moderate the situation.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#137

Post by guiomie » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:31 PM UTC

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

Those are all valid points. But why didn't Spain support a referendum like Canada supported Quebec twice and the UK with Scotland? Like the OP said, this could all have been stopped if Spain had supported the vote and campaigned for the no. How could Catalonia get a 'legal' vote?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#138

Post by ensignavenger » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:31 PM UTC

alvatar wrote: post #38

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

I keep reading this in international media. The Spanish government didn't declare the referendum illegal. It was the top court, which is independent from the government. The government ensures that the law is applied once that is decided. That said, I think Spain should have held a referendum (by changing the constitution). Everything would have been much easier.

Most definitions of government include the judicial system as part of government. I don't know much Spanish, maybe they have different words for the different parts of government, but no word that describes all of government in general, so maybe it is just a translation issue.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#139

Post by fiblye » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:31 PM UTC

vilmosi wrote: post #102

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

>>> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won The UK government thought like you. It allowed the people to vote for Brexit, thinking it would never pass. And here we are today.

Yeah, what a disaster that was. Time to take a step back and reconsider this whole "democracy" sham for what it is. All it does is let the clowns run the circus. And once commoners are voting, who knows what else they'll be doing.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#140

Post by frobozz » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 2:31 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

90% of 43% is still nearly 40% That's a better result in favour of independence than Brexit.