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Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

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Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#201

Post by edanm »

sighwhatnow wrote: post #72
KGIII wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue they have no moral obligation to do any such thing. However, they should probably make a pretty clear warning sign. I fear we will digress too far. In short, I'm very pro freedom of expression. I'm glad voat exists, for example. The people there are often horrible, that is true. But, they still deserve to express themselves freely.

> But, they still deserve to express themselves freely. Um, why. What makes you think this. If someone's opinions are stupid and abhorrent, why should they not experience an immediate and firm response, in ban-hammer form. Why do you want to give ignorant idiots a platform to spread their ignorant idiocy to other ignorant idiots (and e.g. provoke easily influenced mentally ill idiots who might want to drive cars into…

"Why do you want to give ignorant idiots a platform to spread their ignorant idiocy to other ignorant idiots"

Because the only way I can guarantee that "my side" can say whatever it wants, is to guarantee that all sides can say whatever they want.

We have, over many millennia reached a point where tolerance is considered a pretty high virtue - we believe that even if we don't agree with someone, we can live and work side-by-side with them. This is one of the reasons we have stopped trying to kill each other for believing in the wrong religion. This is a good thing.

Note: my first sentence is taken from this clip of the West Wing: https://youtu.be/jmhC9e39aP0?t=181 .

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#202

Post by _khau »

KGIII wrote: post #172
itsdrewmiller wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating the “least” among us with the “worst” among us. We actually only have sympathy for the former.

I'd argue your use of 'we.' Have you ever seen what happens when we dehumanize our enemies? Have you seen what happens when we lose empathy? These people you hate are, without a doubt, able to exhibit some pretty poor behavior. Most of them are children looking to belong, mentally ill, and those who prey on them - also probably mentally ill. Those that are adults were usually reached as children and come from abusive…

How do you empathise with a actual Nazi?

Would you empathise with Reinhardt Heydrich? How?

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#203

Post by heeen2 »

kstrauser wrote: post #158
jquery wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on whether you believe racism is power + prejudice or just prejudice. Since I subscribe to the latter, yes.

Who is Antifa prejudiced against? I'm white but I've never felt like they were any danger to me whatsoever.

One could argue that if you have nice things (e.g. nice car, upscale shop windows) certain groups that are assumed under the antifa umbrella would not hesitate to set fire to your car as a protest against capitalism and the power gradients it strengthens. Examplary incidents are G20 protests in Germany.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#204

Post by JCharante »

_khau wrote: post #202
KGIII wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue your use of 'we.' Have you ever seen what happens when we dehumanize our enemies? Have you seen what happens when we lose empathy? These people you hate are, without a doubt, able to exhibit some pretty poor behavior. Most of them are children looking to belong, mentally ill, and those who prey on them - also probably mentally ill. Those that are adults were usually reached as children and come from abusive…

How do you empathise with a actual Nazi? Would you empathise with Reinhardt Heydrich? How?

Well, I empathize with Hitler because he wasn't treated terribly well by those around him who should have been supportive. His dietician reportedly added bone marrow to his soups without his knowledge because she "despised" his vegetarian diet, and his Austrian cook would sometimes add animal broth or fat to his meals, which would then be noticed by Hitler who insisted on clear soups from then on. Despite Hitler disapproving of cosmetics since they contained animal by-products, Eva Braun had a habit of wearing makeup which Hitler would frequently tease her about.

I think that Eva should have made some sacrifices to make Hitler happier, and it's not like she didn't know the reasons behind it because he was very vocal about his reasons as he would give vivid and gruesome descriptions of animal suffering and slaughter at the dinner table to try to dissuade his colleagues from eating meat.

I have gone through similar experiences so I can empathize with Hitler. This doesn't mean I agree with him overall, but that I understand and share his feelings on a specific subject.

If you strip the humanity from individuals, then you are refusing to try to understand them, which means you don't actually learn anything from the atrocities. When there's a shooting, you try to learn the motives and see where the system failed them. If they were exhibiting symptoms of an untreated mental illness, that lets us know that we need to work on providing better care and diagnosis. If we don't learn from history, then we are doomed to repeat it.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#205

Post by JCharante »

kstrauser wrote: post #158
jquery wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on whether you believe racism is power + prejudice or just prejudice. Since I subscribe to the latter, yes.

Who is Antifa prejudiced against? I'm white but I've never felt like they were any danger to me whatsoever.

> Who is Antifa prejudiced against?

It seems like Antifa is prejudiced against people with a lighter skin tone.

> I'm white but I've never felt like they were any danger to me whatsoever.

Because Antifa is a bunch of civilians.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#206

Post by JCharante »

yodsanklai wrote: post #114
vaishaksuresh wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem is: where will the line be drawn? Intolerance, you draw the line at Intolerance. If BLM, PETA, Antifa want people of other race/class/sexual orientation harmed in any kind of way, sure go ahead and ban them. If on the other hand they want fair treatment, equality or reprieve from targeted brutality, listen to them and see how we as a society can address their concern. If they resort to violence, arrest t…

> Intolerance, you draw the line at Intolerance. Not that simple! "Intolerance: unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behaviour that differ from one's own". Does unwillingness to accept Nazi ideology make you intolerant?

Yes, it does.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#207

Post by [deleted] »

arkona wrote: post #53
keepper wrote: post #27

Amazing ( well, more like sad ) that the first comments I see are "well, we can agree that nazis are bad, but this is a slippery slope, what about BLM, and antifa" Nazism - The belief ( on pseudoscience i may add )that other races ( a term that has no scientific basis ) are only worthy of extermination ( death, MDK ) BLM - The belief ( on experiences of some in society ), that Black people are not treated the same in…

I don’t want to nitpick your definitions, but nazism usually refers to the ideology of the NSDAP, a party that was disbanded at the end of WW2. You probably meant to say “violent racism”, in which case the comparison to antifa, and to a lesser extent blm, seems justified (they are linked by violence).

[deleted]

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#208

Post by Grue3 »

pjc50 wrote: post #199
Grue3 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll tell you why. Nobody who isn't an ISIS member has ever been called an ISIS member. However the favorite tactic of American left lately has been calling anyone who they disagree with a Nazi. For example most people are probably politically to the right to the likes of Anthony Fantano or Laci Green. And yet both of them have been unironically branded Nazis, as a quick Twitter search will confirm. So yeah, if you h…

> Nobody who isn't an ISIS member has ever been called an ISIS member. Pause for a moment to consider how dumb such an easily falsifiable statement is before posting it to HN.

Do you post this kind of comment for any hyperbolic statement, or only this one in particular? Because you can do it all day long. I'm pretty sure you understood perfectly well what my point is.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#209

Post by _khau »

JCharante wrote: post #204
_khau wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you empathise with a actual Nazi? Would you empathise with Reinhardt Heydrich? How?

Well, I empathize with Hitler because he wasn't treated terribly well by those around him who should have been supportive. His dietician reportedly added bone marrow to his soups without his knowledge because she "despised" his vegetarian diet, and his Austrian cook would sometimes add animal broth or fat to his meals, which would then be noticed by Hitler who insisted on clear soups from then on. Despite Hitler disa…

How does any of that about Hitler relate to his policy of exterminating Jews? It's not as if his dietician and Eva Braun were nicer to him he would have decided not to implement the final solution. That's ridiculous.

Once people start actively calling for the deaths of others based on race or religion or creed, that's where the fundamentally opposing ideologies are found that are only resolved through violence.

The lesson we should be learning from history is that appeasing racist fascists doesn't improve things, it only emboldens them by validating their beliefs as acceptable.

I'm not advocating stripping humanity from anyone, because I am fully aware that it is humans who create and commit these abhorrent acts. White nationalists, neo-nazis, whatever you want to call them are absolutely human. They are also all total shithouses that pose a threat to stability and harmony in the same way ISIS do.

They either stop what they are doing, or the blood of both sides runs in the streets. They are the only two options when it comes to beliefs like this. The problem is, the blood running in the streets is often what they want, and what we get.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#210

Post by glenstein »

uoaei wrote: post #159
glenstein wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is part of the problem with these debates that I've noticed: it's an attempt on the one hand to carry on the debate purely in terms of free speech, abstracted from the contents of any particular ideology. And yet, part of what makes you "wrong" to oppose speech of particular groups is that you are just as bad as them. That's a judgment of the "wrongness" of a particular ideology, being directly appealed to, to j…

Funny how the "slippery slope" argument seems to only get used by people resorting to false equivalencies immediately upon commencement of discussions on this topic.

Right, this is precisely my point. I can't count how many times I've seen people defending hate groups resort to slippery slopes and false equivalences. If you don't give hate groups unrestricted access to audiences, they claim 1984 is supposedly right around the corner.

But if you confront them with the slippery slope of equal logical validity which supports the opposing argument, suddenly they're mindful of the dangers of slippery slope arguments.

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