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The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

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Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#151

Post by eonw »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #45

This is a complicated topic. I used to own the lower part of a mountain valley (out west but not in Montana). There were two dirt "roads" into the valley, both immediately against the titled property; the rest of the valley was Federal (BLM) land encircled by mountains that were effectively impassable. Americans generally have a right to use and temporarily occupy these Federal lands without permission, so if I put u…

I live in the semi rural west and know many ranchers, family owns a few... i don't know of a single rancher who has been prevented from doing upkeep on roads across their own land that they allow easement to. only issues i know of are if you block a salmon stream, big no no in washington. also, people will vandalize just about anything, the assertion that they do it because its federal might be a bit off, IMO.

i had a run in with a rancher who pulled a gun on me for using public easement he was quickly visited by the local sheriff and had his ideals corrected.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#152

Post by Joe-Z »

dboreham wrote: post #118
typeformer wrote: post #40

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

I've lived in Livingston for nearly 20 years and I know Alex, and his kids are classmates of mine. This has been big news locally for a while but interesting to see it hit the national wires. However, I grew up in Scotland where we have a somewhat longer history of dealing with access to land and rich people ;) The solution there is that there is a legal right to access wild land. Note this doesn't just apply to "pub…

That solution seems so obvious, I was thinking that the whole time I read the article:

Why allow people to so zealously defend their property rights on a huge plot of land that's hundreds of acres big? It's not like you're standing in their living room.

OTOH maybe that's just my European perspective where we're used to living 'cramped' (as opposed to the vastness of the Americas).

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#153

Post by eonw »

njarboe wrote: post #22

As a research geologist, working in the western US has generally been great because of so much easy access to a large amount of public land. But, over the last 5 years or so, I have noticed more ranchers gating off roads going through their land. This is especially annoying when they have a small in-holding in a national forest or BLM land and the road that has been used for over 100 years is now blocked. Most times…

this is my understanding of easements and closed roads too... a rancher bought some land near my home that has a trail crossing it to public lands that are encompassed by private land. he pulled a weapon on me and was investigated for brandishing and was set straight about his approach to dealing with people using public access, since it was there when he bought the land and it was well known.

ranchers can carry guns, but so can just about anyone else out west.

some folks i know just take the misleading no trespassing signs down. i've also seen where people attach them to trees surrounding good public hunting too, to prevent others from getting their trophies.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#154

Post by eonw »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #36
takk309 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it should be illegal. At the same time, it would be nice if the Forest Service would place signs on these trails clarifying that access is allowed and list the contact information for the proper authorities. That would, however, be expensive and the land owners would no doubt remove the signs.

Removing the signs would be theft of government property, and is punishable by up to one year in jail. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/641 Edit: I'm happy to hang out in an old pickup truck with a coffee and a shotgun and wait for someone to steal the signs. Just point me in the right direction and give me a number to call with the forestry service, national parks, or the bureau of land management when som…

they cant even catch people breaking into hundreds of cars a year at popular trail heads... under staffing is a PITA.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#155

Post by nickik »

wandernotlost wrote: post #147
nickik wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think 'the right' (whatever that means) has abandoned the environment. At least libertarians have not. Check out www.perc.org, these are free market people who are extremely passionate about the environment and they are quite popular and have made great inroads to provide an alternative way of thinking about the environment compared to the leftist big government bureaucracy style of protecting it. They suppor…

PERC is partly the subject of the article: PERC’s affiliation with politically connected outfitters that stand to profit if trails are closed bolsters the sense, to Wilson and others confronting locked gates, that a void in coherent policy about public land management is being filled by cronyism that rewards wealth and connections above all else. Another co-owner of the Wonder Ranch, Frank-Paul King, a friend and for…

I read the article. I just wanted to show that they do more then just what is in the article, because the article points them in a pretty particular way, whatever your opinion of the article is.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#156

Post by nickik »

dang wrote: post #128
nickik wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your understanding of Coase is pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Please don't post like this regardless of how lame another comment was. It only makes this place worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: I'm sad to see that you've posted nastily uncivil comments before this too. We ban accounts that do that, so would you please read those guidelines and err on the side of civility when posting here?

I agree I should not have done so. The parent post just pissed me. I will try to write a better response next time.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#157

Post by eonw »

dbcurtis wrote: post #37
cbcoutinho wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would recommend right-leaning groups as well, but that's mostly because of the hunting communities are usually associated with the actual 'use' of public lands, and have been supporting most of the ecological/wildlife research. There's recently been a big push towards historically sustainable wildlife systems, and that's a topic that resonates with most of the more conservative hunting communities.

Yup. A lot of people don't want to admit that hunters were the original conservationists. And also, a lot of non-hunters don't support hunting-oriented conservation methods. For instance, just because you buy a duck stamp it doesn't mean you have to go duck hunting. Duck stamps support the preservation of duck habitat and other wetlands. Buying a duck stamp is an easy way to directly contribute targetted money to wet…

hunters originally only wanted to 'preserve' what they wanted to kill... otherwise we'd still have wolves, grizzlies, and other predators of all sizes, at their historic populations. likewise, certain hunters favorites wouldn't be dealing with population issues now. the ranchers have done the most harm though, they seem to want to kill everything, imo.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#158

Post by eonw »

tomohawk wrote: post #124

If you own land and let people traverse it without any control, it does eventually become a public right of way. The government has pushed this, effectively taking control of private land. The only sane response is to exercise control of your land by putting up signs, fences, etc.

can you cite any sources of where control of large tracts of land were seized simply due to a road or trail crossing them? i would be interested to read the cases.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#159

Post by cdoxsey »

eonw wrote: post #157
dbcurtis wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. A lot of people don't want to admit that hunters were the original conservationists. And also, a lot of non-hunters don't support hunting-oriented conservation methods. For instance, just because you buy a duck stamp it doesn't mean you have to go duck hunting. Duck stamps support the preservation of duck habitat and other wetlands. Buying a duck stamp is an easy way to directly contribute targetted money to wet…

hunters originally only wanted to 'preserve' what they wanted to kill... otherwise we'd still have wolves, grizzlies, and other predators of all sizes, at their historic populations. likewise, certain hunters favorites wouldn't be dealing with population issues now. the ranchers have done the most harm though, they seem to want to kill everything, imo.

Ironically one of the consequences of strict laws protecting endangered species is it actually leads to more destruction not less. A rancher notices a protected animal on his land and gets rid of it to avoid getting harangued by the government. "Shoot, Shovel and Shutup"

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#160

Post by arethuza »

dboreham wrote: post #118
typeformer wrote: post #40

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

I've lived in Livingston for nearly 20 years and I know Alex, and his kids are classmates of mine. This has been big news locally for a while but interesting to see it hit the national wires. However, I grew up in Scotland where we have a somewhat longer history of dealing with access to land and rich people ;) The solution there is that there is a legal right to access wild land. Note this doesn't just apply to "pub…

Yes, I do a lot of walking in Scotland and its easy forget how great it is to be able to wander about pretty much wherever you want - the only restrictions being pretty sensible anyway.
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