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An Open Letter to Patreon

openlettertopatreon.com

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Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#121

Post by mikojan »

rootlocus wrote: post #113
mikojan wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A disproportionate number of homeless youth identify as LGBT+. LGBT+ youth are overrepresented in the populations of youth who are at risk of arrest. Is it unfounded to assume that those same people are maybe dependent on precarious work, like creating porn to sell on a third-party platform, to make a living?

> A disproportionate number of homeless youth identify as LGBT+. LGBT+ youth are overrepresented in the populations of youth who are at risk of arrest. I haven't heard that before. Is there any data to support this?

I quoted the Wikipedia almost verbatim. Studies are referenced in the footnotes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_among_LGBT_youth_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_in_prison

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#122

Post by Certhas »

rootlocus wrote: post #119
Certhas wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. This is ridiculous and hypocritical. People somehow seriously claim that the authors should hide what community they represent, hide the unintended discriminatory effects of the policy changes, and not be so emotional about losing their livelihoods, because it makes them feel uncomfortable to read an emotional appeal in an open letter.

> People somehow seriously claim that the authors should hide what community they represent, Starting the letter with "We’re writing you today both as adult creators and concerned individuals about free, legal, expression." seems to show the community they represent is "Adult creators and concerned individuals about free, legal, expression". > hide the unintended discriminatory effects of the policy changes, They sho…

Do you have any evidence that:

> "Adult creators and concerned individuals about free, legal, expression"

on patreon are not whom this letter claims they are? If so you are accusing the letter of lying, without any evidence yourself.

What level of evidence would the adult content creators have to bring to the table to satisfy your demands? Representative scientific surveys?

Why will you not take their word for whom they are? Do you somehow know that community better?

Do you not think it prima facie plausible that LGBT, PoC, disabled, etc... are over represented among the most vulnerable of the content creators? (which is the only thing the letter claims)

Because by Jove, that's a damn plausible claim if I've ever heard one.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#123

Post by detaro »

erlend_sh wrote: post #79
aargh_aargh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit is not in the software or service per se. It's in the network effect the existing service already has.

What is the network effect of Patreon? Whatever it is, I don’t consider it to be very strong. Many creators are discovered through their own channels first before their fans learn about their Patreon. OpenCollective made its way into the recurring payments market with relative ease. “All” they needed to do was cater to an underserved niche (open source) that could be serviced better on its own stand-alone platform as…

It has some network effect in that for users already on Patreon, starting to give money to another creator is a lot more low-effort compared to signing up on yet another site or handing yet another party payment details. Depending on how big the motivation is to give money to someone, that can be significant.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#124

Post by arkades »

kuschku wrote: post #110
arkades wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t exist as a business without patreon? Selling porn? Someone should inform ... the vast majority of porn businesses. The rest of them don’t use Patreon for payment processing.

Without payment processors. The argument was whether VISA, MasterCard, etc, which wield a massive influence, and have quite restrictive rules, are anticompetitive and monopolistic.

Porn-specific payments processors include eMerchant Pay, SMA, Alternative Merchant Processing, EZ Payment Solutions, ccNetPay, and Creative Merchant Options.

If you have a dozen processors to choose from, including a half dozen dedicated to your specific niche, you are not being boxed out by a monopoly.

You’re, at that point, just claiming that you are owed a profitable business model. That is not a valid complaint.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#125

Post by ankushnarula »

Certhas wrote: post #120
rootlocus wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These sentences correctly show that this change disproportionately affects some (minority) communities. The letter didn't say anything about what makes the LGBT "disproportionately" affected by this change. What I read was > We’re writing you today both as adult creators and concerned individuals about free, legal, expression. We’re deeply disappointed in your handling of clarity with regards to adult content on yo…

> Why is Patreon having a fuzzy stand against pornography disproportionately affecting the LGBT community? First of all, they say the vulnerable among them are disproportionately LGBT. They do not say that it affects an LGBT creator differently from a straight creator all else being equal. Given that there are massive mainstream porn companies that cover most of the non-queer market, it stands to reason that the crea…

Just to clarify, the aforementioned disproportionate representation is with "street children" not homeless youth as a whole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_children#United_States

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#126

Post by ankushnarula »

mikojan wrote: post #121
rootlocus wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A disproportionate number of homeless youth identify as LGBT+. LGBT+ youth are overrepresented in the populations of youth who are at risk of arrest. I haven't heard that before. Is there any data to support this?

I quoted the Wikipedia almost verbatim. Studies are referenced in the footnotes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_among_LGBT_youth_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_in_prison

Just to clarify, the aforementioned disproportionate representation is with "street children" not homeless youth as a whole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_children#United_States

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#127

Post by mikojan »

ankushnarula wrote: post #126
mikojan wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quoted the Wikipedia almost verbatim. Studies are referenced in the footnotes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_among_LGBT_youth_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_in_prison

Just to clarify, the aforementioned disproportionate representation is with "street children" not homeless youth as a whole. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_children#United_States

I don't understand. Could you clarify how (where?) the referenced article is countering that statement?

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#128

Post by Qw3r7 »

arkades wrote: post #109

Does anyone else recollect the expression “no one owes you a business model”? There’s many reasons Patreon should want to avoid being a porn payments processor. Blame American Puritanism or whatever, but that’s the milieu in which they operate. They don’t owe it to anyone to bear excess risk just so that someone else can have a profitable hustle at their expense. If this is such a big issue for the LGBT community Fun…

I agree completely. They might be just adding in the persons of colour and LGB stuff to try and gain a larger audience for support. And to try and portray Patreon as racist and bigots if they contradict so. It's a shitty but effective way to gain an audience.

Does anyone know the percentile of LGB represented within the effected populace?

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#129

Post by JCharante »

corobo wrote: post #18
badlucklottery wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My first flash thought was a place for funding hate. That's unfortunately not a bad guess. Go check out some of their "featured creators". It's pretty much the bottom of the hate speech barrel.

Ah so it suffers from (or targets) the reddit->voat problem where a userbase is comprised solely of those rejected from the normal site[]. [] Please forgive the use of the word normal, I couldn't think of a better word. "Default site" or maybe "usual site" might work better

What's wrong with normal? The more popular site is the normal one when it comes to finding content creators. Hatrons or voaters aren't going to be triggered by the use of the word "normal".

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#130

Post by falcolas »

arkades wrote: post #109

Does anyone else recollect the expression “no one owes you a business model”? There’s many reasons Patreon should want to avoid being a porn payments processor. Blame American Puritanism or whatever, but that’s the milieu in which they operate. They don’t owe it to anyone to bear excess risk just so that someone else can have a profitable hustle at their expense. If this is such a big issue for the LGBT community Fun…

If you explicitly court particular industry (amateur/niche porn) to build out your own business model, yeah, I think you do owe those businesses a business model. Perhaps not legally, but morally.

> Fund a goddamn KS to make a porn-friendly Patreon clone

Pretty sure you can't KS an adult business (which such a clone would be considered). That's part of the problem. Nobody wants to touch that industry once they become "respectable".

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