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An Open Letter to Patreon

openlettertopatreon.com

101–110 of 245 posts

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#101
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that is how it's intended. I took it to be the typical US centric view, in which case "not speaking English" translates to "not speaking the locally dominant language". Also note that the language in the article is not exclusionary. They explicitly say: This is hurting the vulnerable among us, who are disproportionately XYZ. They don't say it only hurts XYZ, they don't say it hurts all XYZ, they say it…

I do think that it is valid to point out people who might be harmed by the policy they are opposing, but I fear that the language used appears to engender a sense of exclusivity of victimhood; e.g.: > Stand behind your women and LGBT creators. The gist of this is probably that Patreon is being called upon to stand behind all vulnerable , oppressed , or marginalized creators, but their language keeps using explicit ca…

Well then quote the whole bit:

> Take a stand behind your creators who make revolutionary independant content. Stand behind your women and LGBT creators.

In my reading they do always lead with the general call to stand behind vulnerable creators, before specifying some more affected groups:

> We know people who would be homeless if it wasn’t for making porn on Patreon – and it’s not a small number. We know people who now employ many queer performers, workers, subcontractors – all working to make beautiful content.

That is inclusive: There is no identity for whom being homeless would not suck, and they don't limit that sentence in any way.

Reality is also that if you are a porn director targeting a cis male audience you have other options than patreon to get work.

But seriously, I am fortunate to be cis male and heterosexual. Yet still active in a scene that is not represented in the mainstream (and where content creators are often targeted by credit card blocks). I had absolutely no problem reading that letter despite not getting a specific call out to my community in it. Because almost all of the authors there are not queer disabled gender-fluid people of color. They might be one of the above, or two. But they wrote a letter that gives shout outs to all these different dimensions that don't affect them directly. And it strikes me as a misreading that they intended this list of dimensions in which you can be out of the mainstream to be exhaustive.

I see zero evidence in this letter that the authors would consider an alternative independent cis male porn creator, who values the independence that patreon brings, not one of them. As somehow excluded from that call.

Queer-normative cis/hetero exclusionary behaviour exists, and I've seen it. In my reading this letter does not contain any.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#102

Doesn't make a lot of sense 1. "Your fuzzy position on “adult content” vs. “porn” gives you the freedom to discriminate at will. And it makes content creators live in fear of that discrimination, itself leading to self censorship of important viewpoints." 2. "[...] we also must listen to and represent those who simply make porn. Who want to be creative with their porn, yes, but most importantly want to be self direct…

Elsewhere in the letter it is described that Patreon employees had explicitly given approval for pornographic Patreon accounts, only to have this retracted later.

I do feel that their point gets lost in the letter, but ultimately their complaint is simple; there's a niche market and niche opportunities for their specific groups to make pornography for their target audience, and very few means for receiving payment. Patreon previously was a good work-around for the issues with many payment processors refusing to allow pornography, but by being a Patreon campaign, they could avoid this. The letter signees were under the impression that Patreon was okay with this, but now Patreon is saying they are not.

If the above is accurate, then I really get why they're confused and frustrated. I feel they're presenting things in reverse order or taking too long to get to the core point (they want to make porn as they had before without being penalized by payment processors), and Patreon was a solution that made everyone happy, though apparently something changed for Patreon.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#103
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's important to include the bit, then why stop the list there? What about apostates? Autists? Fat people? People who are otherwise unemployed? I agree with the other poster. This feels like not only emotional blackmail, but tired, overused emotional blackmail. You can very reasonably bring up the angle of people who depend on the platform for their income without dragging around the identity politics baggage wit…

Maybe it's just important to include that bit, because it actually reflects the experience of the authors? The community that signed the letter? Are those groups you mention actually disproportionately affected by this change? Either way, this whole letter consisted of a few sentences that brought in the identity angle. These sentences correctly show that this change disproportionately affects some (minority) communi…

> When cis white men get threatened with losing their livelihoods by over-active PC campaigners, do you complain that the fact that they are cis white men features in the story?

If they'd start their complaint with "we as white men" I'd get tired of reading it pretty early too.

> When these stories feature the fact that that man has three children to feed, do you complain about the emotional blackmail?

I'll admit I'm less tired of this particular brand of emotional blackmail. Having children is holding responsibility for other people's lives.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#104
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's important to include the bit, then why stop the list there? What about apostates? Autists? Fat people? People who are otherwise unemployed? I agree with the other poster. This feels like not only emotional blackmail, but tired, overused emotional blackmail. You can very reasonably bring up the angle of people who depend on the platform for their income without dragging around the identity politics baggage wit…

Maybe it's just important to include that bit, because it actually reflects the experience of the authors? The community that signed the letter? Are those groups you mention actually disproportionately affected by this change? Either way, this whole letter consisted of a few sentences that brought in the identity angle. These sentences correctly show that this change disproportionately affects some (minority) communi…

> These sentences correctly show that this change disproportionately affects some (minority) communities.

The letter didn't say anything about what makes the LGBT "disproportionately" affected by this change. What I read was

> We’re writing you today both as adult creators and concerned individuals about free, legal, expression. We’re deeply disappointed in your handling of clarity with regards to adult content on your platform, and the mixed messages we have been receiving.

Which seems like a reasonable concern. Followed non sequitur by:

> Not only that, the most vulnerable among us – disproportionately queer, trans, disabled, people of color and those whose first language is not English – are literally scared for our lives.

Why is Patreon having a fuzzy stand against pornography disproportionately affecting the LGBT community?

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#105
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this specific case, maybe chargebacks are the problem, but in general, American puritanism is insufferable (Facebook banning reproductions of 19th century paintings, etc.) Also, it's inexplicable. I would much rather have my kids exposed to a million boobs (that they can see anywhere on the beach anyway -- and why are boobs a problem in the first place is anyone's guess) than to the horrible and dehumanizing viole…

As to why violence and war is more acceptable I believe the answer lies in that intimacy and explicit content is much closer to home, its relatable, it attracts feelings and is also easily accessible. On the other hand war, violence and gore are really a far away concept that does not resonate with a lot of people. Its also an established ok-thing so it being all around us in the form of entertainment makes people ev…

But why does your reasoning apply to the USA but not most of the rest of the western world?

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#106
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with showing a nipple. This was more about the porn and private sex shows. There are all kinds of legitimate reasons why one might not want to enter that business. That's their right as a business owner.

Not when it becomes impossible to exist as a business without relying on such intermediaries, e.g. VISA or MasterCard. Then they are a monopoly, and can't choose their customers anymore.

You can’t exist as a business without patreon? Selling porn?

Someone should inform ... the vast majority of porn businesses. The rest of them don’t use Patreon for payment processing.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#107
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to understand what's your issue with this. Are you questioning that the queer, trans, disabled, PoC are in a weaker (and often precarious) position than the cis white (male)? Or is it emotional blackmail to point out that a change (once again) hits hardest for the people that are in a weak position? Isn't it considered common decency to keep in mind the needs of the people that are weaker than us? That might j…

The ability to leverage performative victimhood invalidates any claim that you are weak. If you are actually weak, you will do anything not to draw attention to your self, as you will not be able to control the perceptions or actions of others.

I guess the key phrase there is "leverage". Does your performace succeed? In the case of trans people on US coasts, this seems to be changing. For a short time, their identity had leverage, but the fact that this discussion is criticizing the authors of the letter for trying to leverage trans victim-hood, suggests that this leverage is waning.

As an example of a group without victim-hood leverage, see NAMBLA [1], which represents another sexual orientation, but one which bears no leverage. Another victimized group with seemingly no leverage are those victims of child abuse who are suffering from multiple personality disorder. I know, in the abstract one would say that a victim of child abuse certainly has leverage, but if you read the appeals by those who suffer from severe psychological disorders as a result, you will immediately feel yourself recoil in disgust and grant them no audience. People tend to not see "monsters" as victims, and if we find people too weird or frightening we don't see them as victims. What other groups have no leverage? Perhaps some drug users, we tend to blame them for their problems.

I would argue, that leverage is sometimes directly related to power. For example, the Jews were rich before WWII, and are still rich today. Since the holocaust, their victim-hood has born unparalleled leverage. However, in the same holocaust, the Roma people of the Czech Republic were treated just as badly as the Jews, and being poor, far fewer of them escaped. Yet the Roma have almost no leverage from their holocaust victim-hood.

But do you think that trans people have power?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_As...

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you on puritanism, but it's not about "a nipple" it's about porn. "[...] we also must listen to and represent those who simply make porn. Who want to be creative with their porn [...]"

Porn is legal. While GP might be semantically incorrect, the point is that porn has been a legal part of American culture for at least 100 years. It makes absolutely no sense to discriminate against processing payments for one of America's largest entertainment industries.

American culture, you mean a mix between African, Native American, Asian, Polynesian, and Latin American cultures? especially Latin American? You can't grow a culture with 100 years.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#109
Does anyone else recollect the expression “no one owes you a business model”?

There’s many reasons Patreon should want to avoid being a porn payments processor. Blame American Puritanism or whatever, but that’s the milieu in which they operate. They don’t owe it to anyone to bear excess risk just so that someone else can have a profitable hustle at their expense.

If this is such a big issue for the LGBT community Fund a goddamn KS to make a porn-friendly Patreon clone. Or just to Fund starting a porn-friendly payments processor. If the model is profitable rather than a charitable infusion by the processor, then it’ll be good for everyone, wont it?

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#110
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when it becomes impossible to exist as a business without relying on such intermediaries, e.g. VISA or MasterCard. Then they are a monopoly, and can't choose their customers anymore.

You can’t exist as a business without patreon? Selling porn? Someone should inform ... the vast majority of porn businesses. The rest of them don’t use Patreon for payment processing.

Without payment processors.

The argument was whether VISA, MasterCard, etc, which wield a massive influence, and have quite restrictive rules, are anticompetitive and monopolistic.

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