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An Open Letter to Patreon

openlettertopatreon.com

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Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#111

Post by timthelion »

featherverse wrote: post #61

Patreon probably uses a credit card processor that prohibits selling pornography, as many of them do. If you're an original content creator you should not be using Patreon as your sole source of income. Patreon is a good way to get attention for your brand, but your primary goal as a creator of goods for sale should always be to funnel your fans to your own website where you control all sales and you don't have to gi…

How would you funnel your fans to your own website if the credit card processors won't let YOU sell porn?

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#112

Post by raesene6 »

kaffee wrote: post #100
aargh_aargh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit is not in the software or service per se. It's in the network effect the existing service already has.

I agree with @erlend_sh. Patreon _does not_ have much in the way of a network. Its recommendations (if you like this, you'll like that) are typically awful. They're so bad in fact, that I suspect there's some sort of legal/liability constraint. Right now Patreon is a remarkably dumb system with really high fees. That there isn't a serious alternative already makes me suspect that this is isn't a really high profit si…

I guess it depends on what you consider high profit. From https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/18/patreon-pushes-as-youtube-... looks like Patreon has 50k creators and 1M+ patrons.

The challenge could well be that whilst they're growing and making money, they're not making enough money to satisfy their VC backers, having taken $47m in funding so far.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#113

Post by rootlocus »

mikojan wrote: post #94
pmorici wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"scared for our lives" sounds like the same line police officers trot out and repeat over and over when they kill someone they ought not have. I think that sort of claim evokes a negative reaction when it seems like the sentiment is unfounded based on the circumstances because it feels like the person saying it isn't being genuine but just trying to manipulate people.

A disproportionate number of homeless youth identify as LGBT+. LGBT+ youth are overrepresented in the populations of youth who are at risk of arrest. Is it unfounded to assume that those same people are maybe dependent on precarious work, like creating porn to sell on a third-party platform, to make a living?

> A disproportionate number of homeless youth identify as LGBT+. LGBT+ youth are overrepresented in the populations of youth who are at risk of arrest.

I haven't heard that before. Is there any data to support this?

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#114

Post by zoul »

Certhas wrote: post #92
mikojan wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you not be "literally scared" for your life when faced with the prospect of becoming homeless? I would be. Why is it a "tearjerker speech" if that is your situation and if you want that situation to be taken into account as they do? If you think they're lying say so. Calling this a "tearjerker speech" strikes me as dishonest.

I agree. This is ridiculous and hypocritical. People somehow seriously claim that the authors should hide what community they represent, hide the unintended discriminatory effects of the policy changes, and not be so emotional about losing their livelihoods, because it makes them feel uncomfortable to read an emotional appeal in an open letter.

I don’t want people to “hide what community they represent”, but I also don’t want them to use that fact as a bargaining chip instead of arguments.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#115

Post by imustbeevil »

madshiva wrote: post #108
imustbeevil wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Porn is legal. While GP might be semantically incorrect, the point is that porn has been a legal part of American culture for at least 100 years. It makes absolutely no sense to discriminate against processing payments for one of America's largest entertainment industries.

American culture, you mean a mix between African, Native American, Asian, Polynesian, and Latin American cultures? especially Latin American? You can't grow a culture with 100 years.

That's some weird gatekeeping. Culture is a collection of social norms shared by a local population. It's not determined by time, or Race, it's determined by action.

Most Americans live similarly to their neighbors, and have for hundreds of years.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#116

Post by timthelion »

As a white hetro male who consumes porn, as do %90 of us white hetro males do. I do not understand how it can be "fine" and "modern" for us to watch porn. But not "fine" and "modern" for the women who produce it to be paid for it. Porn is one of the few products out there that provides real value, real stress relief, and has no environmental or moral downsides.

Porn is better for the environment, animals rights, and, when sold independently, workers rights than icecream. But no one bans the sale of icecream.

Porn is better for the environment, the local economy, and workers rights than the fidget spinners which are produced in China, but no one bans the sale of fidget spinners.

Lets face it, as hetro males, the women who make our porn are providing real value to us, and we should be ashamed that so few of us pay money that actually goes their way.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#117

Post by mikojan »

rootlocus wrote: post #97
mikojan wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you not be "literally scared" for your life when faced with the prospect of becoming homeless? I would be. Why is it a "tearjerker speech" if that is your situation and if you want that situation to be taken into account as they do? If you think they're lying say so. Calling this a "tearjerker speech" strikes me as dishonest.

> Why is it a "tearjerker speech" if that is your situation and if you want that situation to be taken into account as they do? It's "tearjerker" because it conforms to the definition of tearjerker: "A highly sentimental story, drama, or performance, often intended to arouse heartache or sympathy." [1] They blame Patreon for their vulnerability and use pity to win an argument. Fact is, they placed all their eggs in o…

If those two statements form a "highly sentimental story, drama, or performance" every Reuters report does.

If you're convinced of the importance of ignoring misery one believes to be self-inflicted you should have that argument, though.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#118

Post by rootlocus »

Certhas wrote: post #53
netsharc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have nothing against erotica/porn and nothing against LBGT , but yeah, the open letter writer seems to be using "Why won't you think of the LBGT community?" line as a talking point, probably because accusing a company of being anti-gay is an effective weapon nowadays... somehow, saying more of this community uses their sexuality to make money (through Patreon) makes me feel "I'm sure the LGBT* accountants and bus d…

Hey, most porn out there is straight. In fact it's a multi-billion dollar industry. Really shows how the straight community uses their sexuality to make money, doesn't it? If you don't fit the target audience of the porn industry, you have to look elsewhere, like Patreon. The mainstream porn business does not cater to everyone. That's fine. The queer market is much smaller. But it also means its over-represented on p…

> If you don't fit the target audience of the porn industry, you have to look elsewhere, like Patreon.

Except, you know, maybe Patreon doesn't want that.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#119

Post by rootlocus »

Certhas wrote: post #92
mikojan wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you not be "literally scared" for your life when faced with the prospect of becoming homeless? I would be. Why is it a "tearjerker speech" if that is your situation and if you want that situation to be taken into account as they do? If you think they're lying say so. Calling this a "tearjerker speech" strikes me as dishonest.

I agree. This is ridiculous and hypocritical. People somehow seriously claim that the authors should hide what community they represent, hide the unintended discriminatory effects of the policy changes, and not be so emotional about losing their livelihoods, because it makes them feel uncomfortable to read an emotional appeal in an open letter.

> People somehow seriously claim that the authors should hide what community they represent,

Starting the letter with "We’re writing you today both as adult creators and concerned individuals about free, legal, expression." seems to show the community they represent is "Adult creators and concerned individuals about free, legal, expression".

> hide the unintended discriminatory effects of the policy changes,

They shouldn't hide it, but they should at least show some evidence for it.

> and not be so emotional about losing their livelihoods,

They can be emotional all they want, but it's maybe not the best argument to change a company's policy. If it's masquerading as an argument, then it's emotional blackmail.

> because it makes them feel uncomfortable to read an emotional appeal in an open letter.

I don't mind emotional appeals when they actually make sense.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#120

Post by Certhas »

rootlocus wrote: post #104
Certhas wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's just important to include that bit, because it actually reflects the experience of the authors? The community that signed the letter? Are those groups you mention actually disproportionately affected by this change? Either way, this whole letter consisted of a few sentences that brought in the identity angle. These sentences correctly show that this change disproportionately affects some (minority) communi…

> These sentences correctly show that this change disproportionately affects some (minority) communities. The letter didn't say anything about what makes the LGBT "disproportionately" affected by this change. What I read was > We’re writing you today both as adult creators and concerned individuals about free, legal, expression. We’re deeply disappointed in your handling of clarity with regards to adult content on yo…

> Why is Patreon having a fuzzy stand against pornography disproportionately affecting the LGBT community?

First of all, they say the vulnerable among them are disproportionately LGBT. They do not say that it affects an LGBT creator differently from a straight creator all else being equal.

Given that there are massive mainstream porn companies that cover most of the non-queer market, it stands to reason that the creators on Patreon are disproportionately queer. Thus any change on Patreon, postivie or negative, will affect queer performers disproportionately by that fact alone.

Changes that are not intrinsically discriminating, can have discriminatory effects.

If you will further grant that LGBT people suffer discrimination outside of Patreon, they will be over represented among the most vulnerable creators by that fact. Thus they will be disproportionately represented amongst the vulnerable content creators on patreon, affected by this change.

Let's take this to another area. Homeless youth shelters. Let's say a politician somewhere campaigns on closing down local homeless youth shelters.

You could say: Closing down these shelters would hit the most vulnerable among us – disproportionately queer, trans, disabled, people of color and those whose first language is not English - hardest.

Because, in fact, all these groups are strongly over represented among American homeless. Drastically in some cases:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_among_LGBT_youth_...

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