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An Open Letter to Patreon

openlettertopatreon.com

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Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#91

Post by Certhas »

nippples wrote: post #56
Xylakant wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to understand what's your issue with this. Are you questioning that the queer, trans, disabled, PoC are in a weaker (and often precarious) position than the cis white (male)? Or is it emotional blackmail to point out that a change (once again) hits hardest for the people that are in a weak position? Isn't it considered common decency to keep in mind the needs of the people that are weaker than us? That might j…

If it's important to include the bit, then why stop the list there? What about apostates? Autists? Fat people? People who are otherwise unemployed? I agree with the other poster. This feels like not only emotional blackmail, but tired, overused emotional blackmail. You can very reasonably bring up the angle of people who depend on the platform for their income without dragging around the identity politics baggage wit…

Maybe it's just important to include that bit, because it actually reflects the experience of the authors? The community that signed the letter? Are those groups you mention actually disproportionately affected by this change?

Either way, this whole letter consisted of a few sentences that brought in the identity angle. These sentences correctly show that this change disproportionately affects some (minority) communities. Non discriminatory changes can have discriminatory effects. This is important.

The anti-PC crowd immediately latched onto these few sentences and now HN top upvoted thread is all about how the letter made the HN crowd feel uncomfortable.

When cis white men get threatened with losing their livelihoods by over-active PC campaigners, do you complain that the fact that they are cis white men features in the story? When these stories feature the fact that that man has three children to feed, do you complain about the emotional blackmail? Because I sure as heck don't remember any discussion threads on HN going: I agree that he shouldn't be fired over this, but why do they have to drag this tired, overused emotional blackmail into it?

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#92

Post by Certhas »

mikojan wrote: post #86
Majestic121 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using the same kind of 'emotional blackmail' speech, and it is annoying because it forces the discussion into a Manichean stereotype of good (poor, weak, discriminated) vs evil (big company full of white guys trying to stomp on the weak). This is bad for the debate as it tries to shut down all opposition (and I'm not even opposing) and remove all possibility of nuance. This is taking the conversation hostage.…

Would you not be "literally scared" for your life when faced with the prospect of becoming homeless? I would be. Why is it a "tearjerker speech" if that is your situation and if you want that situation to be taken into account as they do? If you think they're lying say so. Calling this a "tearjerker speech" strikes me as dishonest.

I agree. This is ridiculous and hypocritical.

People somehow seriously claim that the authors should hide what community they represent, hide the unintended discriminatory effects of the policy changes, and not be so emotional about losing their livelihoods, because it makes them feel uncomfortable to read an emotional appeal in an open letter.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#93

Post by kbart »

kome wrote: post #5

American puritanism is the problem. I have enough of those American companies arbitrarily deciding that a nipple is an obscene thing. But how to fight back this form of cultural imperialism?

I don't think that puritanism is the problem here. Adult content, especially users made one, is notoriously hard and risky to moderate. Just one underage model on your site might be enough to bring everything down, stain your reputation for a long time and under right consequences, even land you in jail. I guess payment processors refuse to cater such type of business for precisely the same reason as nobody wants headlines such as "Payment Processor X is used to fund child porn".

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#94

Post by mikojan »

pmorici wrote: post #69
Xylakant wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to understand what's your issue with this. Are you questioning that the queer, trans, disabled, PoC are in a weaker (and often precarious) position than the cis white (male)? Or is it emotional blackmail to point out that a change (once again) hits hardest for the people that are in a weak position? Isn't it considered common decency to keep in mind the needs of the people that are weaker than us? That might j…

"scared for our lives" sounds like the same line police officers trot out and repeat over and over when they kill someone they ought not have. I think that sort of claim evokes a negative reaction when it seems like the sentiment is unfounded based on the circumstances because it feels like the person saying it isn't being genuine but just trying to manipulate people.

A disproportionate number of homeless youth identify as LGBT+. LGBT+ youth are overrepresented in the populations of youth who are at risk of arrest. Is it unfounded to assume that those same people are maybe dependent on precarious work, like creating porn to sell on a third-party platform, to make a living?

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#95

Post by kuschku »

kbart wrote: post #90
kuschku wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant payment processors. MasterCard, VISA and PayPal all will refuse to do business with you, or pressure you into changing your business, if you're found to be in the pornography or prostitution business. Even if that's legal in your country. And in Sweden, banks are now collecting fees for getting cash, or paying in cash, of about 10$ each. So you can't really do anything as customer or company without MasterCar…

So how do legitimate porn sites collect money? It's a multi-billion industry, I'm sure they've solved this problem somehow.

According to Wikipedia, many of them accept bitcoins, wire transfers, etc.

Obviously, that is a significant hurdle that isn't required for other businesses.

A similar issue existed a few years back with a major German retailer, which sold cuban cigars — and MasterCard, VISA and PayPal closed their accounts over it, but luckily in Germany wire transfers, direct debit and Europay cards are common enough that they had an alternative.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#96

Post by pjc50 »

It's interesting that there are two basic HN responses to content restrictions:

- "companies have a right to control their platform"

- demands for freedom of all speech everywhere

.. but this time those are both very far down the thread and instead we're having a "I don't like your tone" discussion.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#97

Post by rootlocus »

mikojan wrote: post #86
Majestic121 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using the same kind of 'emotional blackmail' speech, and it is annoying because it forces the discussion into a Manichean stereotype of good (poor, weak, discriminated) vs evil (big company full of white guys trying to stomp on the weak). This is bad for the debate as it tries to shut down all opposition (and I'm not even opposing) and remove all possibility of nuance. This is taking the conversation hostage.…

Would you not be "literally scared" for your life when faced with the prospect of becoming homeless? I would be. Why is it a "tearjerker speech" if that is your situation and if you want that situation to be taken into account as they do? If you think they're lying say so. Calling this a "tearjerker speech" strikes me as dishonest.

> Why is it a "tearjerker speech" if that is your situation and if you want that situation to be taken into account as they do?

It's "tearjerker" because it conforms to the definition of tearjerker: "A highly sentimental story, drama, or performance, often intended to arouse heartache or sympathy." [1]

They blame Patreon for their vulnerability and use pity to win an argument. Fact is, they placed all their eggs in one risky basket, and now that basket is gone. They have themselves to blame. There are lots of LGBT people out there who aren't scared for their lives because Patreon discriminates against porn. This doesn't affect the LGBT community, it affects people who bet all their income on producing adult content on the Patreon. Arguing that LGBT are scared for their lives has nothing to do with the actual problem: "we can't make adult content on Patreon anymore, and we have no other income, but we don't want to find a job so please have pity [on the LGBT who are scared for their lives]".

[1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tearjerker

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#98

Post by afarrell »

nemothekid wrote: post #34
netsharc wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why is the payment processor doing that? Because they're afraid of the government. Why? Because the government doesn't like boobies. Why? Puritanism...

> And why is the payment processor doing that? Because they're afraid of the government. AFAIK, the only place government wrings the hand of payment providers is for terrorism or they want to specifically choke a political actor. In Patreon's case, I'd imagine it has to do more with fraud, or more specifically how the "big" payment providers won't touch porn. (After all, the big porn sites have been processing credit…

> Stripe has pornography spelled out in its term of service as prohibited

IIRC in 2011 this was due to the terms of their contract with their banking partner, Wells Fargo. I suspect this is still the case.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#99

Post by pjc50 »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #58
DanBC wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your point. Fuck is said very often on UK tv.

Fuck is more of an adjective or conjunction in the UK, whereas in the US it’s definitely considered profanity.

No, it's definitely profanity in the UK too. Every now and again some profanity makes it through and someone has to make an apology. Today it's for a hilarious spoonerism on BBC Breakfast: https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/4762492/bbc-breakfast-...

Edit: guidelines at http://www.channel4.com/producers-handbook/ofcom-broadcastin... or http://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidance/live-outpu... (content warning: actually says the banned words, obviously). There's something very funny about imagining the serious discussion that must have resulted in these documents.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#100

Post by kaffee »

aargh_aargh wrote: post #74
erlend_sh wrote: post #68

There’s a major opportunity for competition here. A complete open source stack for what Patreon does is already available as free open source software: https://github.com/opencollective A sex-positive alternative to Patreon could be up and running within a month. A lone developer could make a viable side-business for them self living off the 10% fee + having their own collection project. This would be good for the Op…

The benefit is not in the software or service per se. It's in the network effect the existing service already has.

I agree with @erlend_sh. Patreon _does not_ have much in the way of a network. Its recommendations (if you like this, you'll like that) are typically awful. They're so bad in fact, that I suspect there's some sort of legal/liability constraint.

Right now Patreon is a remarkably dumb system with really high fees.

That there isn't a serious alternative already makes me suspect that this is isn't a really high profit site in the first place. It could be that dealing with the NSFW creators is really a bid to increase the profit of the site beyond some modest baseline.

Of course this pessimistic conclusion suggests the reason why there isn't a bitcoin-based competitor either. The legal issues and the fees are just too high to attract investment.

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