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America has a monopoly problem

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Re: America has a monopoly problem

#31

Post by rayiner »

CPLX wrote: post #19
rayiner wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They often are, because companies in highly competitive industries don’t have the excess profits to reinvest in research. Computing as we know it is largely the story of monopolies. Bell Labs bankrolled by the AT&T monopoly. Xerox PARC bankrolled by the Xerox copier monopoly. The Internet bankrolled by the ultimate monopoly (the military). The modern web bankrolled by the Google/Apple duopoly.

> Bell Labs bankrolled by the AT&T monopoly. Comparing one very effective and interesting skunkworks lab with the incredible explosion in choices and service in telecommunication, as well as drastically lower prices, that came when the monopoly was broken up? I think you're demonstrating the anti-monopoly point handily.

The AT&T breakup destroyed the telecommunications industry. AT&T’s gold-plated POTS network was expensive, but for its time it was a technical marvel. Competitive industries don’t build stuff like that. There is a reason Apple and Samsung (huge, vertically integrated monopolies) produce the best phones.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#32

Post by emodendroket »

buttcoinslol wrote: post #29
buttcoinslol wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Argument consists of: Appeal to Authority fallacy Grade: F (see me after class)

Not sure why I'm being downvoted? OP throws out "Peter Thiel says monopolies are good," which is an appeal to authority and a post meant to cause controversy.

I think the point was probably more an attack on Thiel than an appeal to authority.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#33

Post by anomie31 »

whistlerbrk wrote: post #14

America has a corruption problem. The ability for companies to vertically integrate and essentially make smaller businesses non-competitive can only occur when you don't have to pay the taxes your smaller competitors have to pay and don't have to obey the same laws your competitors have to obey. We have a systemic corruption problem (manifested in lobbying) coupled with greed on scales we've never seen before. Everyt…

Why do you believe economies of scale doesn't enable this?

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#35

Post by emodendroket »

losteric wrote: post #11
hanklazard wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any links you could recommend? I’d like to read more as I disagree strongly.

* Peter Thiel's WSJ article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/peter-thiel-competition-is-for-... * Criticism: https://medium.com/@petersimsie/why-peter-thiel-is-dead-wron... * Alternate interpretation of Thiel's intent: https://www.quora.com/Peter-Thiel-claims-that-competition-is...

I mean, in the narrow sense he's of course right -- if you're a business owner or investor the logical thing to do is to aim to create a monopoly. Where I depart is the claim that this is also good for society as a whole.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#36

Post by kazagistar »

emodendroket wrote: post #26
wu-ikkyu wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>companies in highly competitive industries don’t have the excess profits to reinvest in research. On the flip side, monopolies often have little incentive to invest in improving their products/services, and find they can profit from making their products cheaper/worse.

Or outright killing research that threatens their main revenue drivers. Like, OK, we eventually got digital cameras, but Kodak didn't do anything with it for a long time because they wanted to keep selling film. With graver consequences, Exxon decided to suppress its own findings about climate change.

Another ongoing example: suppression of research into male birth control due to fears of cutting into profits from the cash cow that is female birth control.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#37

Post by mtberatwork »

emodendroket wrote: post #25
rayiner wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They often are, because companies in highly competitive industries don’t have the excess profits to reinvest in research. Computing as we know it is largely the story of monopolies. Bell Labs bankrolled by the AT&T monopoly. Xerox PARC bankrolled by the Xerox copier monopoly. The Internet bankrolled by the ultimate monopoly (the military). The modern web bankrolled by the Google/Apple duopoly.

I don't really think it is fair or reasonable to gloss over the tremendous role of government research by just calling the military "the ultimate monopoly."

...or all of the universities that contributed a wealth of research to modern computing.

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#38

Post by callinyouin »

rayiner wrote: post #6
brndnmtthws wrote: post #4

Peter Thiel (who works with YC) will tell you that monopolies are good for the world.

They often are, because companies in highly competitive industries don’t have the excess profits to reinvest in research. Computing as we know it is largely the story of monopolies. Bell Labs bankrolled by the AT&T monopoly. Xerox PARC bankrolled by the Xerox copier monopoly. The Internet bankrolled by the ultimate monopoly (the military). The modern web bankrolled by the Google/Apple duopoly.

Kind of a hard argument to make when there are plenty of examples of contributions to computing that weren't bankrolled by monopolies. Just think about how much, especially in the early days, came out of academia alone. And I'm not sure where you get that the modern web has been bankrolled by Google and Apple when there are many, many other contributors.

IMO, innovation is usually fueled by competition. Where there's lots of competition, the need to innovate is the necessity for survival. I mean, how innovative was Microsoft in the 90's when they essentially had a monopoly on desktop computing? That's how we got stuck with IE 6 for so long...

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#39

Post by oconnor663 »

whistlerbrk wrote: post #14

America has a corruption problem. The ability for companies to vertically integrate and essentially make smaller businesses non-competitive can only occur when you don't have to pay the taxes your smaller competitors have to pay and don't have to obey the same laws your competitors have to obey. We have a systemic corruption problem (manifested in lobbying) coupled with greed on scales we've never seen before. Everyt…

> The ability for companies to vertically integrate and essentially make smaller businesses non-competitive can only occur when you don't have to pay the taxes your smaller competitors have to pay and don't have to obey the same laws your competitors have to obey.

That sounds a little too extreme. Has vertical integration never occurred without the help of tax law?

Re: America has a monopoly problem

#40

Post by chimprich »

buttcoinslol wrote: post #29
buttcoinslol wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Argument consists of: Appeal to Authority fallacy Grade: F (see me after class)

Not sure why I'm being downvoted? OP throws out "Peter Thiel says monopolies are good," which is an appeal to authority and a post meant to cause controversy.

The OP wasn't necessarily agreeing with Thiel, just highlighting something of a counter-opinion. Your reply was a bit uncivil and didn't really add anything.
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