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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#251

Post by seanmcdirmid »

sotojuan wrote: post #230
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised how much a family sucks time from your life. Before baby, I had plenty of time to overtime work as well as pursue my hobbies. Now that is all gone....

My point was that, at 23, I also have no time for overtime work. Not because I have kids to pick up or take care of sure, but that does not make it OK for companies to expect long hours outside of emergencies.

Ah, I've never been in that situation before. Many of us often overtime because we want to get something accomplished, not just for or even primarily for the company's good. That we get paid to do what we love is kind of a bonus, but it isn't the main motivator(well, we need jobs that are interesting enough, and we need money to provide for the family).

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#252

Post by mr_tristan »

I'm 40, worked in the SF bay area, San Diego, Vienna, and now Portland. Office cultures are definitely different in each city, but the chances of running into a major-league asshat goes up significantly in the areas where there's a ton of money and risk taking.

Things often become wacky are when you have a massive glut of growth, thus, you get a ton of people hired into "senior" positions without actually having to know anything.

I remember my first "senior" title was after having about 1-2 years of experience. Everyone was like that, they threw titles around like mad, in part because I think it made the company look smarter on paper for an acquisition.

Anyhow, I avoid places that seem to inflate egos and expectations, and I've had far fewer issues with age-ism. You just have to be prepared to move on when the environment gets toxic in any way.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#253

Post by alpeb »

Considering there's a shortage of labour supply in this industry, if you're good enough, at some point it is you who is screening candidate companies you'd like to work with and not the other around. And just as it's hard for companies to find the right candidates, it's hard for you to really tell how work is gonna be like with any given company. Things like ageism, culture-fit crap, ping-pong tables benefits (instead of better pay) are all great hints that give away places you don't wanna work in. Not just because those things are bad by themselves, but also they reveal a lack of moral principles that's gonna be reflected later on in the job in many other ways.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#254

Post by pan69 »

subway wrote: post #240
amelius wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question: how does one become a "senior developer" if one has only worked at startups? Is it as simple as assigning yourself the title? Or does one need to work at a large organization (with large teams) to be able to use this title (with credibility of course)? What if you were the only developer at the startup?

The title will be handed out as a perk when you've been with the company for a relatively long period (on the order of a couple years), or to add and ego bump to the salary bump of an offer at a new gig. In our field, it's a near meaningless title modifier.

I've actually seen titles being used in very different way, as a form of currency. You can offer people a lower salary for which in return they get a big inflated title to stick on their Linkedin profile. Loads of people love big titles to prance around with (especially the younger ones).

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#255

Post by bitsnbytes »

intellectronica wrote: post #20
kayoone wrote: post #14

I feel this might change when more of the current young generation of engineers are getting older since there just weren't as many tech workers 20 years ago, so it's still relatively rare to see 50 year old developers. Besides there are many places outside of Silicon Valley or the US were experienced engineers are very welcome.

I agree. My experience has been that ageist views (just like sexism, racism, homophobia, etc) are more often expressed by people of previous generations and that millennials are actually more flexible and open to the idea that they would work with someone older (or of another gender, different skin colour, etc).

"I agree. My experience has been that ageist views (just like sexism, racism, homophobia, etc) are more often expressed by people of previous generations and that millennials are actually more flexible and open to the idea that they would work with someone older (or of another gender, different skin colour, etc)."

I think millennials are far more open when it comes to sexism, racism, homophobia, etc by far. However, when it comes to ageism not so much.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#256

Post by georgeburdell »

xux wrote: post #196

Sorry, I don't buy this whole "older workers more likely to see through bullshit" narrative that many presumably older folks on HN push. It sounds awfully like the arguments that traditionally nationalist groups use against immigrants, contending they're less intelligent and accept lower wages because they're culturally inferior and just don't know better Maybe it's just that younger workers legitimately provide bett…

It sounds awfully like the arguments that traditionally nationalist groups use against immigrants, contending they're less intelligent and accept lower wages because they're culturally inferior and just don't know better

Is this the new Godwin's Law?

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#257

Post by toomuchtodo »

convolvatron wrote: post #237
tyingq wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think this could be solved by coming up with a more common vocabulary of tech job titles. That's a good point. I think that mismatches in salary expectation are often driven by this. I can find jobs that feel very similar, but ask for "Senior Developer", "Software Engineer II", "Lead Software Engineer", "Tech Lead", "Software Architect", "Programmer Analyst". Then, the varied use of "Junior, Senior" vs "I, II, III…

that seems to be just noise, all the jobs are 'devops - work on what we think we need today'

I regret I only have one upvote for this.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#258

Post by alasdair_ »

sokoloff wrote: post #231
RhodesianHunter wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last paragraph perfectly describes why as a French speaking American engineer I refuse to work in France even though I would love to live there. My salary in a flyover state in the US is 5X the best I could find in France.

Part of the problem is trying to employ people in France or, more specifically, worrying about the day when you need to stop employing someone in France. After going through it once, I'll never voluntarily do it again.

Germany is also an issue. At a previous job, we completely moved all development work from Munich to Dublin because the added headaches caused by hiring/firing in Germany were enormous.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#259

Post by sizzle »

psyc wrote: post #241
matwood wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll give a detailed answer than I know to be correct and insightful, and they'll say it's wrong Wow, do you have an example?

The worst example was as follows. I've been a 3D engine programmer for >15 years. I was a senior engine programmer at EA, and shipped very famous things. Recently I was interviewed by two recent college grads, who asked me to summarize the rendering pipeline. I did so. Their feedback was that I "failed to demonstrate expertise."

I hope you tore them a new one and let them know the err of their ways since you clearly are experienced.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#260

Post by vram22 »

wpietri wrote: post #246
humanrebar wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all that. I think it's already happening, too. You can be a "test engineer" or work in "quality assurance" and get pigeonholed easily. But one person's pigeonhole is another person's dream 9-5 job. I don't see a harm in labelling the expectations that are already there. I think there's wisdom in waiting for established roles before defining them. "Container engineer" is too specific or at least too early…

If something seems stable enough to try to make a career around, sure, nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying there's very little for which that is true. 40 years ago was 1977. You can find the help wanted ads here: https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1977/10/23/iss... (p 370-395 or so) The ads I can find there include Computer Console Operator ("must be able to operate 370/145 and 370/418 under DOS/VS wi…

Interesting analysis.

>People were even specific about vendors; one was an Oracle DBA or a Sybase DBA.

I can confirm it, anecdotally. I knew a guy who several years ago went to the US on H1-B as an Oracle DBA. And I've heard of and seen ads for other such cases - earlier.

Similarly for PowerBuilder or VB developer earlier, and of course you still see ads for Python / C++ / Haskell / whatever developer.

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