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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#71

Post by humanrebar »

intellectronica wrote: post #60
eric_h wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age discrimination can also be salary discrimination. People with more experience rightfully require more in salary.

This is a view that actually sometimes prevents older people from managing it in market. Because of how fast technology moves, much of your experience from 10+ years ago isn't very relevant today, so if you expect a higher salary because of it you will be disappointed. It's important to be realistic and accept that if you've been working since your early 20s, you accumulate experience that might result in a higher sa…

I think there are plenty of things to learn throughout a career. I don't see why technical growth should get capped after 20 years of experience.

I do believe career growth stalls out at a certain point, though. But I chalk that up to organizational culture, not something inherent to tech work itself. There aren't clearly defined career paths where one would start out making bigger and bigger technical decisions as they gained more experience. You do see that career trajectory in management tracks, as one would manage more people and bigger budgets.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#72

Post by gtirloni »

sotojuan wrote: post #63
donatj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also family and responsibility. When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. Now that I’m married, I have more important things to do and my company gets much less free labor.

> When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. I am 23 (started working in programming at 22) and this view confuses me. I don't want to sound rude but... you didn't have hobbies? Friends? Partner? Errands to run? Non-work programming projects? Even when I was single and lived alone, I had ple…

Some people might enjoy the work they do so much that it feels better to keep doing that in their spare time rather then having a hobby, time with friends, partner, errands (specially those), etc.

It's not healthy in the long term but I can see why someone would choose that path and it doesn't have to mean this person "doesn't have a life".

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#73

Post by allengeorge »

I suspect there are a couple of reasons - especially in the newer/startup space:

* Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. And they've probably a lot more personal financial responsibilities. All told, they're unlikely to go for the same salary as a new grad.

* Interview process. Anecdotal experience, but, the interview process is structured towards new grads. They've studied algorithms recently, so it's at their fingertips. Unless you've brushed up before interviewing you can look sloppy and unsure in comparison. This can be harder if you've an existing job and family commitments. (Note: I'm not saying you shouldn't study; just pointing out that this can happen.)

* It's hard to gauge experience. Simply because a person has been in the industry for 10 years doesn't mean that they're "more experienced". It's very tricky to gauge: it's easy to tell when someone is less experienced than you, but much harder if they're more experienced. Plus, how do we evaluate experience? Design questions? Software architecture? Looking at code they've written? It's very fuzzy, and a lot depends on the skill of the interviewer and their own experience.

* Finally, we devalue experience. A personal bugbear is hearing hiring managers say that they can train up a new grad to be a tech lead in about a year. Unless you've worked on a couple of largish projects - and seen your own designs evolve in response to requirements, I question that strategy. But, who knows - maybe I'm completely off-base there.

EDIT: I'd like to raise a final point: sometimes the impact of experience is only apparent when you've to scale your product architecture or your team. Assuming that most startups fail (i.e. never make it that far), this means most very early stage teams can get by with an ad-hoc process and/or system until they pass that hump.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#74

Post by seanmcdirmid »

sotojuan wrote: post #63
donatj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also family and responsibility. When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. Now that I’m married, I have more important things to do and my company gets much less free labor.

> When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. I am 23 (started working in programming at 22) and this view confuses me. I don't want to sound rude but... you didn't have hobbies? Friends? Partner? Errands to run? Non-work programming projects? Even when I was single and lived alone, I had ple…

You'd be surprised how much a family sucks time from your life. Before baby, I had plenty of time to overtime work as well as pursue my hobbies. Now that is all gone....

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#75

Post by bryanlarsen »

sotojuan wrote: post #63
donatj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also family and responsibility. When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. Now that I’m married, I have more important things to do and my company gets much less free labor.

> When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. I am 23 (started working in programming at 22) and this view confuses me. I don't want to sound rude but... you didn't have hobbies? Friends? Partner? Errands to run? Non-work programming projects? Even when I was single and lived alone, I had ple…

When you have a young family, those things are both much more numerous and much more important.

Right now I am more resentful of the forty hours a week I spend at work than I was of the seventy I spent at work during the period I was practicing over twenty hours a week for a national dance championship.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#76

Post by dogruck »

allengeorge wrote: post #73

I suspect there are a couple of reasons - especially in the newer/startup space: * Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. And they've probably a lot more personal financial responsibilities. All told, they're unlikely to go for the same salary as a new grad. * Interview process. Anecdotal experience, but, the interview p…

Some of those points are actually age discriminatory.

For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? Instead, it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company.

I understand that many startups simply do not have the cash required to pay a high base salary. But, that's what equity compensation is for.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#77

Post by seanmcdirmid »

fsloth wrote: post #66

The best insurance against age is to find some domain, and excel at that. At 40, it's not so good if your top claim in CV is "I know C++ in an out". "I was part of a team delivering product X, Y and Z which produced this much revenue for our company and which provided this and this value to our clients. I'm experienced contributor in domain W, and am comfortable in providing value using technologies A and B." is much…

By specializing in a domain, you live and die by it. It usually happens anyways, but it isn't all upside.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#78

Post by mmsimanga »

sotojuan wrote: post #63
donatj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also family and responsibility. When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. Now that I’m married, I have more important things to do and my company gets much less free labor.

> When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. I am 23 (started working in programming at 22) and this view confuses me. I don't want to sound rude but... you didn't have hobbies? Friends? Partner? Errands to run? Non-work programming projects? Even when I was single and lived alone, I had ple…

Hobbies and side projects are flexible to a degree. I cannot pick my child up after 5 from school.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#79

Post by intellectronica »

FabHK wrote: post #70
throw2016 wrote: post #24

Something for students to think about, in most other careers you study for, experience is valued and you usually end up being respected and highly paid, think management, doctors, civil engineers etc. In tech it works the other way and you will be insignificant by 40.

Not sure why this is down voted. It is an important consideration, unless you don't plan to live a long and meaningful life.

Because it's not true. The right lesson to learn is that in any occupation, tech included, experience alone isn't enough and you need to always continue to learn and acquire new skills to stay relevant.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#80

Post by allengeorge »

dogruck wrote: post #76
allengeorge wrote: post #73

I suspect there are a couple of reasons - especially in the newer/startup space: * Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. And they've probably a lot more personal financial responsibilities. All told, they're unlikely to go for the same salary as a new grad. * Interview process. Anecdotal experience, but, the interview p…

Some of those points are actually age discriminatory. For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? Instead, it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company. I understand that many startups simply do not have the cash required to pay a high base salary. But, that's what equity compensation is for.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: I'm not asking companies to pay older employees more. I'm simply pointing out that job-hopping and personal commitments make it likely that older employees will demand a higher salary, which smaller companies may be loath to give.
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