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A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

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341–350 of 353 posts

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#341
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hell, when the Mayor of NYC said something about it, at the next event, cops turned their backs on him. > These are not "decent people". I really don't think it's that clear cut. The cops who turned their backs aren't all, necessarily, bad people. The insularity of police culture generates significant peer pressure for cops to cover each other's backs and to protect their mutual perceived safety and self interest.…

You should sprinkle some more "I think" and "I believe" and "I'm under the impression" when stating your opinions, because none of what you say is anything more than speculation and just-so stories.

I led the comment with "I really don't think it's that clear cut" - intending to indicate I was about to express an opinion.

I have a friend in the NYPD, who did not turn his back on the mayor in that incident.

This problem needs to be solved from the top down. Police need to be constantly reminded that their job is more than just being enforcers.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#342
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hell, when the Mayor of NYC said something about it, at the next event, cops turned their backs on him. > These are not "decent people". I really don't think it's that clear cut. The cops who turned their backs aren't all, necessarily, bad people. The insularity of police culture generates significant peer pressure for cops to cover each other's backs and to protect their mutual perceived safety and self interest.…

An enormous amount of evil that has occurred in this world has involved peer pressure. And all evil has extenuating circumstances. I understand that to prevent evil we should understand the reasoning behind why people do bad things. But this doesn't make the people or acts less evil. Peer pressure or not, protesting accountability for your group after a member committed manslaughter is a bad act.

I suppose it wasn't entirely clear as I didn't state it explicitly, but my point really was that a few bad apples spoils the bunch.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skepticism is merited after a certain volume of debunked claims.

Partisans always 'debunk' every claim made that disagrees with them. It's not a meaningful signal.

1. As a point of clarification, I'm not partisan, nor are the sources I had in mind.

2. There's a distinction between "debunked" and "claimed to be debunked"; you're conflating my meaning (the former) with the latter. If you did mean the former, then you're questioning all empiricism and objectivity, in which case we have no basis for discussion or reason and we may as well stop now.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if Ferguson is any example, communities will absolutely lie about the police. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#Ev... This isn't to say police are completely innocent; just that the "entire communities..." defense isn't a very good one.

If what you say about Brown is true (Wikipedia is not a reliable source on politically controversial issues), it's not evidence. That's just one incident in among claims by millions of people that have been going on for generations.

> Wikipedia is not a reliable source on politically controversial issues

I can't imagine it's less reliable than, say, the field of sociology. At any rate, the claims in the wikipedia article are well-sourced, so if they are false, it should be trivial to demonstrate as much.

> it's not evidence. That's just one incident in among claims by millions of people that have been going on for generations.

What you describe is evidence. It isn't proof. But your broader point stands--we need more data about this to know how prevalent it is. My only point is that it's not unprecedented for communities to lie--specifically your refutation ("it's been going on for generations") supports my pet theory, which is that a lot of historical oppression by police has turned many black communities against police, driving uncharitable interpretations of police behavior at best and outright slander (as in the Ferguson case) at worst. Note that these communities can be lying and not necessarily be bad people--slander is morally wrong, but it's also an understandable (though unjust, misguided, etc) response to oppression. Compassion and honesty aren't mutually exclusive, as we are often tempted to believe.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Peer pressure or not, protesting accountability for your group after a member committed manslaughter is a bad act. I believe they were protesting the generalizations he insinuated about the entire police department. I found it distasteful, but the good cops had a reason to be pissed.

I don't know about everyone else, but until they start to step up and turn in the bad apples, I will personally continue to make generalizations. These people are police officers, it's their job to uphold the law.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, good cops could have turned in serious offenders, but we would never know about it because we only get our information from the news. I assume the PD would keep it internal.

Granted, that is an optimistic view.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#346

I was recently the victim of an armed kidnapping, escaping only by jumping out of my own car from the driver seat while in gear with the gunman in the passenger seat. By the time the police arrived, my attacker escaped in my car and the first words out of the sergeants mouth was “cut the crap, quit jerking us around, what really happened?” Sure enough I was in a jurisdiction that only two months prior was equipped wi…

Why does what the cop said matter? It sounds like a pretty wild story, so I'm not surprised someone might doubt it on first hearing about it. Did they beat you up, refuse to help you, or something like that?

>Did they beat you up, refuse to help you, or something like that?

I’ll explain it like this...I felt revictimized. In my estimation four officers spent their time questioning me instead of any resources attempting to locate the gunman actively getting away in my car.

The truth is even being forced to drive my attacker at gun point for approximately 25 minutes, I felt some degree of control in the sense I had some power to make a decision even as bad as all of the available options were pretty bad. At some point after exhausting everything I could think of to negotiate myself out of the situation safely (i.e. please just let me out and take my phone and wallet; I’m a lawyer maybe I can help you, you don’t need to do this), I accepted that very likely what was going on is I was being forced to drive to an isolated location where I would be shot and my body wouldn’t be found.

Accepting something like that as reality is actually empowering - and I even testified to this - I considered driving my car into a concrete median on the highway at high speed; making a move to grab the gun and fight; I considered driving my car off the shoulder of the highway down a grassy hill and trying to roll out. And these were very real possibilities and options I could have attempted thinking at least if I lived I would get medical treatment quickly if this happened on I-95 and he would likely get caught...which I felt was unlikely if I allowed the entire thing to play out in some isolated location. At the end the gunman forced me to exit the highway and I made my move when being directed to do a u-turn at an intersection.

So you have to consider I’m not trained for any of this, but still I felt somewhat in control in the sense that I could make a choice. And when I escaped I felt some degree of elation, because of all my options I ended up picking one that got me away from a gunman relatively unharmed physically considering. But then I felt instead of pursing this gunman who was making an active get away in my car there were 4 officers busy questioning me the most senior of them setting the tone for the rest by basically telling me I’m full of shit before even speaking with me. I felt more victimized than with the gunman, because the reality was I had no options, I had no recourse, and in my mind their own bias ensured this guy would safely make a get away in my car (which he did). So based on nothing more than how the one officer treated me I felt more victimized by them than the gunman, because I actually had less power.

I went from feeling I made the right choice by escaping, to thinking I did the wrong thing and that what I should have done is try to fight and take the gun...godforbid something like this ever takes place again, it is very likely I will take that option, knowing full well life isn’t some movie where the good guy always wins.

And it’s not just about me but about the next victim and how they are treated, maybe it’s a woman escaping a sexually motivated attacker and this officer asking why she is dressed so provocatively if she didn’t want it. Chilling effects are real, and telling a victim they are lying as the first words out of your mouth while showing zero interest in pursuing the suspect making an active getaway from the scene sets the tone. Then again it was this slight (perceived or not) that resulted in me locating the suspect with 24 hours, even with a location from a stolen iPad there was an initial refusal for the police to go to the location, it was me who drove to the location and confirmed my vehicle location and the gunman, and that burden really should not have been on me, I should have felt confident the police would find this guy especially when I provided them with a location from my iPad that happened to be in the car. So you tell me, did they refuse to help me?

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They care when the chief has to explain to the city council why they need an extra $2 million in the budget this year. Shit rolls downhill.

That money isn't paid out of the budget, they have insurance for it.

Insurers are not charities. They price based on a risk model.

A police department with frequent liability payouts can expect their premiums to be priced according to the risk they represent (assuming they are even able to find an insurer still willing to underwrite them).

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That money isn't paid out of the budget, they have insurance for it.

Insurers are not charities. They price based on a risk model. A police department with frequent liability payouts can expect their premiums to be priced according to the risk they represent (assuming they are even able to find an insurer still willing to underwrite them).

Do those risk adjustments actually occur in real life? Is it even specifically "police insurance," or is it under the umbrella of the insurance for the jurisdiction (city, county, etc.) where those risk adjustments can get buried within larger coverage patterns?

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breivik made me decide some time ago that I will never bring my family to Norway, no matter the offer.

If 'Breivik' happened regularly, even just every three years, then I would see your point. A society that produces a Breivik (i.e. some crazy fascist who thinks killing the most children he can is what he should do with his time) every three years must indeed be sick. For these reasons I'm currently also concerned about most European countries. Desth rate statistics don't do justice to the looming threat of a group/t…

Norway's massacre rate is on par with the US when you consider that Norway has 1.62% of the US population.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 'Breivik' happened regularly, even just every three years, then I would see your point. A society that produces a Breivik (i.e. some crazy fascist who thinks killing the most children he can is what he should do with his time) every three years must indeed be sick. For these reasons I'm currently also concerned about most European countries. Desth rate statistics don't do justice to the looming threat of a group/t…

Norway's massacre rate is on par with the US when you consider that Norway has 1.62% of the US population.

This whole thread started with me saying that police overstepping their boundaries is one reason I wouldn't move my family to the US. Obviously that doesn't just apply there though. The massacre thing was brought up as a weird counterargument - which I'd file as a typical case of whataboutism. I agree that massacres aren't a good reason against the US, and for that matter one would rather avoid many western European countries atm if at all.
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