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A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

nytimes.com

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Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#331

Post by arwhatever »

apsec112 wrote: post #231
steamer25 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just need to establish a legal precept that if the body cam footage isn't there to corroborate the cops' story, we assume the worst and they get held accountable for anything a plaintiff is able to plausibly allege. Under that scenario, most cops would become the biggest advocates for e.g., redundancies, backups and transparency.

This seems to abolish the right to be "innocent until proven guilty". It's always possible to allege a crime that no one can prove didn't happen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot ), so without a presumption of innocence, the system essentially puts the accused at the mercy of the accuser.

If the police are given any sort of beneficial presumption, either formally or informally, at least that presumption should be discarded in cases in which body cam footage turns up missing.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#332

Post by forapurpose »

weberc2 wrote: post #177
forapurpose wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> social justice marketing ... not just the BLM folks ... It doesn't sound like you are "open to evidence to the contrary". Those words seem to dismiss such evidence.

Skepticism is merited after a certain volume of debunked claims.

Partisans always 'debunk' every claim made that disagrees with them. It's not a meaningful signal.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#333

Post by forapurpose »

weberc2 wrote: post #183
forapurpose wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think people get a skewed perception of the police force from a relatively small number of highly publicized incidents. What is this statement based on? Can you provide any data? What about people - whole communities in many places, over generations - who claim to be persecuted continuously by police. Are those people making it up? The people protesting in St Louis - what are they spending all that time and energ…

Well, if Ferguson is any example, communities will absolutely lie about the police. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#Ev... This isn't to say police are completely innocent; just that the "entire communities..." defense isn't a very good one.

If what you say about Brown is true (Wikipedia is not a reliable source on politically controversial issues), it's not evidence. That's just one incident in among claims by millions of people that have been going on for generations.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#334

Post by sumedh »

jandrese wrote: post #3

It probably shouldn't be that big of a surprise. Police officers are almost entirely decent people that shouldn't feel the need to change their behavior just because they're being recorded. Regular citizens would already be on their best behavior around cops, the camera doesn't change much. I think people get a skewed perception of the police force from a relatively small number of highly publicized incidents. Counte…

> I think people get a skewed perception of the police force from a relatively small number of highly publicized incidents.

I assume you are white which is why you made that statement, I think a black person would have a different opinion.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#335

Post by m_mueller »

corndoge wrote: post #314
m_mueller wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Stories like these have made made me decide some time ago that I will never bring my family to the US, no matter the offer.

Breivik made me decide some time ago that I will never bring my family to Norway, no matter the offer.

If 'Breivik' happened regularly, even just every three years, then I would see your point. A society that produces a Breivik (i.e. some crazy fascist who thinks killing the most children he can is what he should do with his time) every three years must indeed be sick. For these reasons I'm currently also concerned about most European countries.

Desth rate statistics don't do justice to the looming threat of a group/tribe/clan/haggle of people who are out to just kill out-group people no matter what. I'm not concerned much about the risk itself, but I am about what it does to civic life.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#336

Post by someguydave »

bobbinsbob wrote: post #266
steamer25 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just need to establish a legal precept that if the body cam footage isn't there to corroborate the cops' story, we assume the worst and they get held accountable for anything a plaintiff is able to plausibly allege. Under that scenario, most cops would become the biggest advocates for e.g., redundancies, backups and transparency.

I know this won't be a popular comment but it never surprises me that this attitude that police should be guilty until proven innocent arrises. It seems to be the default setting. Just like the way everyone hates the police until they need them. Everything is at some point the fault of the police. It seems like everyone wants the police to do only what they want them to and to be punished if the police do something d…

The problem is that we are raising expectations for police behavior and are unwilling to recruit and pay for that kind of staffing.

It seems people want police to be johnny-on-the-spot when it comes to cracking down on crime immediately while simultaneously exercising extreme discretion and self-control when it comes to respecting legal rights and responsibilities.

I'm not sure who could even fulfill those kinds of expectations but it would be someone like a grizzled experienced prosecutor who has defense lawyer experience who is in good physical condition and is physically well trained.

I doubt the pool of people who meet those criteria are willing to work for police salaries.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#337

Post by mulmen »

kbutler wrote: post #297
mulmen wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage of airline crashes is acceptable? What percentage of police abuses of power is acceptable? Half was a made up number. The point is we are right to hold the police to a high standard and demand solutions when they fail in their duties.

Yes. And when an airline crash occurs, we don't just say, "it's because the pilot is a horrible person", or worse, "all pilots are horrible people." We analyze what went wrong and what we can do better, then we engineer the system to accommodate human weakness and prevent damage from human error. It's easy to be an armchair pilot, but usually crashes are caused by more complex issues.

Yes airplane crashes are complex, that's painfully obvious. In the case of an airline crash we don't say "well flying is complicated this is bound to happen" or otherwise make excuses for the pilot.

If we were as diligent with our police forces as we are with commercial airlines we wouldn't have as many bad cops.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#338

Post by magnetic »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #178
magnetic wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if that works... I mean, even if it's millions of $ each year that PD have to settle/pay, why does it hurt them? Aren't they simply going to pass that cost back to the taxpayers?

Police departments have budgets, not blank checks. If the police come to the local government saying they need an extra umpty-million this year because they keep getting sued for brutality, questions are going to be asked.

Certainly, but at the end of the day, they'll say: "well if we don't get $x then we will have to cut the force. If we don't pay our officers, they are just going to leave." What do you do then? You can fire people you hold accountable, but that isn't going to fix your budget situation: if you don't fund the PD, the services are going to be cut, and taxpayers are going to be impacted.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#339

Post by MR4D »

apsec112 wrote: post #231
steamer25 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just need to establish a legal precept that if the body cam footage isn't there to corroborate the cops' story, we assume the worst and they get held accountable for anything a plaintiff is able to plausibly allege. Under that scenario, most cops would become the biggest advocates for e.g., redundancies, backups and transparency.

This seems to abolish the right to be "innocent until proven guilty". It's always possible to allege a crime that no one can prove didn't happen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot ), so without a presumption of innocence, the system essentially puts the accused at the mercy of the accuser.

While you are completely correct, it would force any rational being to make sure not only that they are wearing a camera, but that it is working too.
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