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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#201

Post by nickjj »

5ilv3r wrote: post #180
nickjj wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I would say there's more chances of being discriminated against. Instead of potentially dealing with HR reps or developers behind closed doors people are consuming my content out in the open and judging every video / piece of content.

So... you're not a developer then. You're one of those "full stack rockstars" everyone is talking about not talking about.

I spend about 50% of my time doing freelance dev work and 50% course creation.

Then another 50% coding side projects, blogging and contributing to open source.

But Nick, that's 150%. Yeah I know. What can I say. I love writing code. :(

It's all in an Indie Hackers interview btw if you google my name you'll find it.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#202

Post by bdcravens »

dogruck wrote: post #76
allengeorge wrote: post #73

I suspect there are a couple of reasons - especially in the newer/startup space: * Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. And they've probably a lot more personal financial responsibilities. All told, they're unlikely to go for the same salary as a new grad. * Interview process. Anecdotal experience, but, the interview p…

Some of those points are actually age discriminatory. For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? Instead, it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company. I understand that many startups simply do not have the cash required to pay a high base salary. But, that's what equity compensation is for.

> why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person

I personally feel there's a point where it's a law of diminishing returns, somewhere around the 5-10 year of experience mark.

> it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company.

In general older developers are bringing experience from other projects, other industries, past crises, and soft skills that provide value (for instance, I think a 24 year old and a 40 year old have different approaches to telling someone they disagree with them)

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#203

Post by mythrwy »

xux wrote: post #196

Sorry, I don't buy this whole "older workers more likely to see through bullshit" narrative that many presumably older folks on HN push. It sounds awfully like the arguments that traditionally nationalist groups use against immigrants, contending they're less intelligent and accept lower wages because they're culturally inferior and just don't know better Maybe it's just that younger workers legitimately provide bett…

Maybe I don't understand but it sort of sounds like in the last sentence you validate what you don't buy in the first.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#204

Post by scarface74 »

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #186
allengeorge wrote: post #73

I suspect there are a couple of reasons - especially in the newer/startup space: * Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. And they've probably a lot more personal financial responsibilities. All told, they're unlikely to go for the same salary as a new grad. * Interview process. Anecdotal experience, but, the interview p…

As an employer in the "newer/startup space", I have some thoughts on this: > * Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. First of all, why does job hopping entitle you to a higher salary? A guy who's done 5 jobs of 2 years each, with one of them being most relevant to my position, vs. someone who's done 1 job of 10 years so…

The latter will be more useful for my organization. Job hopping also seems negatively correlated to specialization, which IMO is your key differentiated value as a prospective employee.

That person who has specialized for 10 years probably hasn't been exposed to the five different environments with 5 different ways of doing things and being able to mix and match the best of all of the environments.

That person who has specialize may know how to code, but do they have experience talking to different customers in different verticals? Have they been involved in the full life cycle including devops?

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#205

Post by bdcravens »

andai wrote: post #43
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On behalf of all old people: Fuck that, and fuck the idea that cognitive performance alone should determine whether someone in our industry can eat. Because as much as we love to tout that every programmer is living with a house and a mortgage and a happy family, I happen to know for a fact that some are struggling to eat. Eh. Not exactly an objective viewpoint, I know. But to maybe drain away some of the energy I ju…

I must be missing the point, but isn't programming literally cognitive performance? As you age, your speed and ability to learn new things gradually decline ("fluid intelligence"), but what you've already learned and mastered ("crystallized intelligence"), can remain very strong until the end :) But have heart! Many people have demonstrated that complex skills (playing musical instruments, and even reading and writin…

Read tMcGrath's sibling comment. "Gradually decline" refers to 3 IQ points over time. You probably have team members who are > 3 IQ points apart.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#206

Post by seattle_spring »

asdfasdfasd333 wrote: post #179

This is much bigger problem than gender discrimination in tech. Until this is addressed, I won't take the latter seriously.

Do you have any proof to back up this very large claim?

As my own personal anecdote, I would say that it's the exact opposite. The only time I see claims of age discrimination are from people who have grown into a very awful attitude.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#207

Post by manigandham »

xux wrote: post #196

Sorry, I don't buy this whole "older workers more likely to see through bullshit" narrative that many presumably older folks on HN push. It sounds awfully like the arguments that traditionally nationalist groups use against immigrants, contending they're less intelligent and accept lower wages because they're culturally inferior and just don't know better Maybe it's just that younger workers legitimately provide bett…

Cheap and fast can cost you more over the long run, a truth I've seen play out over dozens of companies that could've used the wisdom of someone who did it all before.

There's a legitimate concern over age discrimination which you seem to have underscored with your comment that you "dont really need someone with 30 years of experience".

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#208

Post by hamstercat »

xux wrote: post #196

Sorry, I don't buy this whole "older workers more likely to see through bullshit" narrative that many presumably older folks on HN push. It sounds awfully like the arguments that traditionally nationalist groups use against immigrants, contending they're less intelligent and accept lower wages because they're culturally inferior and just don't know better Maybe it's just that younger workers legitimately provide bett…

From my point of view, seeing through bullshit is not about being intelligent, but rather having experience. After you have lived through different situations, some of them shitty, I believe you can get better at identifying them from the get-go. I'm not old myself, but I definitely understand things now that would simply go over my head when I started out.

There's no silver bullet of course, but usually a company should strive to have a mix of both experienced and less experienced workers. Less experienced workers cost less and will be more willing to "deal with bullshit", but more experienced workers bring knowledge with them that can prove invaluable to a company. They've lived through different situations, and they've seen success and failures. Finding the good balance depends of each company's situation of course.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#209

Post by bdcravens »

j10t wrote: post #8

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social ju…

By the same token, alcohol consumption has been shown to lower IQ over time, so should we value sober job candidates?

"People who have been drinking large amounts of alcohol for long periods of time run the risk of developing serious and persistent changes in the brain. Damage may be a result of the direct effects of alcohol on the brain or may result indirectly, from a poor general health status or from severe liver disease."

https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#210

Post by seattle_spring »

throw2016 wrote: post #24

Something for students to think about, in most other careers you study for, experience is valued and you usually end up being respected and highly paid, think management, doctors, civil engineers etc. In tech it works the other way and you will be insignificant by 40.

Those are not the same things at all. My experience with "older" engineers puts them into 2 camps:

* Those that have grown into leads, have become masters of their craft, have major accomplishments, and are still willing to admit there's always more to learn: No problem getting a job, very highly paid and sought after.

* Those that have a 20 year resume of 1 to 2 year jobs. No title progression, bad and arrogant attitudes, have completely let themselves go physically. Always talk down to other engineers, claiming how they did it 20 years ago was so much better ("why don't we use vanilla JS instead of this fancy React mumbo jumbo"). Almost always QA "engineers" / SDETs. Cannot find a job because they're not valuable, but claim ageism.

If you had a doctor that claimed that we did medicine better 30 years ago, and hopped around to new hospitals every 6 months to 2 years, you bet your ass they'd be hard-pressed finding a new job as well.

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