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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#121

Post by tyingq »

allengeorge wrote: post #73

I suspect there are a couple of reasons - especially in the newer/startup space: * Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. And they've probably a lot more personal financial responsibilities. All told, they're unlikely to go for the same salary as a new grad. * Interview process. Anecdotal experience, but, the interview p…

>Salary. ...they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher

It isn't just job hopping. Even if you ignore promotions to a new title, many workplaces give out yearly salary adjustments that are a bit higher than inflation. Compound interest over 20 years adds up.

Note that I'm well past 40, so I'm in this boat. There are people with a very similar skill set to mine that are less expensive, mostly because they are younger.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#122

Post by fsloth »

branchless wrote: post #102
fsloth wrote: post #66

The best insurance against age is to find some domain, and excel at that. At 40, it's not so good if your top claim in CV is "I know C++ in an out". "I was part of a team delivering product X, Y and Z which produced this much revenue for our company and which provided this and this value to our clients. I'm experienced contributor in domain W, and am comfortable in providing value using technologies A and B." is much…

Lots of people in big companies specialize in things they think are domain specific but are really company specific, they become redundant and cannot get a similar position. Odd to pick c++. If you are very well versed in c++ you could get a well paid job in 100s of places.

I should have defined domain better, my bad. Domain as in e.g. 'real time graphics'. True, one needs to understand what it takes to have true domain specific experience and not just 'company X widget specific.

I haven't been looking for a job in a long while so C++ might have been a bit non-obvious example. There are lots of positions where C++ alone is worthless without basic engineering level understanding of linear algebra, and it's harder to find peoples for those roles. Hence, the roles are less disposable (as long as there is a market for the product).

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#123

Post by tyingq »

oldboyFX wrote: post #33

I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination. Now this is 100% anecdotal, but I know a few 45+ year old developers and most of them are long-time corporate employees and are not really interested in the whole startup / bloggosphere / tech hype world. They have good stable jobs (think Perl, .NET, Java), and are mainly focused on their fam…

>Older developers of HN, what are your experiences?

Yes, it happens quite frequently. The most common code word is "overqualified". Often used even when it's clear that the candidate and the hiring manager are in the same ballpark on expected salary.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#124

Post by bitwize »

gerbilly wrote: post #94
nomercy400 wrote: post #32

As somebody who does interviews for developers in a Java shop, a very blunt view of things: Any coding you've done more than five years ago isn't relevant anymore. I can't remember what I did five years ago. It is probably outdated, replaced or not in use any more. Looking back at my projects from five years ago, I would probably not agree with most of the code, as I've learned a lot of new things. I do care about yo…

>You don't know what the technology behind a website is? Then it's a minus, as you've missed out on ten years of technological advancements in your field. Huh, we hired a guy who worked on the JVM and the Java compiler. Not much web experience. Would he have been technical enough for you? You don't like COBOL it seems, but you do realize that web development and it's byzantine combination of random languages, documen…

Most shops require expertise in the specific tools, frameworks, and domains they're using -- and can afford to be picky. Given the choice they will always pick the person who can "hit the ground running" over the one who "needs to be brought up to soeed". And they usually have thst choice.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#125

Post by intellectronica »

oddlyaromatic wrote: post #91
intellectronica wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a view that actually sometimes prevents older people from managing it in market. Because of how fast technology moves, much of your experience from 10+ years ago isn't very relevant today, so if you expect a higher salary because of it you will be disappointed. It's important to be realistic and accept that if you've been working since your early 20s, you accumulate experience that might result in a higher sa…

>much of your experience from 10+ years ago isn't very relevant today >you're not more qualified than someone less experienced who has that skill. I'd gently disagree with this. An extra decade or more of working and navigating the relationships of a workplace, and honing a sense of professional judgment and problem solving is worth something. An employee does far more than implement a specific skill. You need some o…

"You need some of that extra stuff too". Indeed. but whether you have 10 years or 25 years of that extra stuff might not make more than a marginal contribution to how you're valued.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#126

Post by Clubber »

dogruck wrote: post #110
sumeno wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is assuming you should pay an older person more because they are older, but because they are more experienced. Paying someone with 30 years experience more than someone fresh out of school isn't age discrimination. Find me a fresh out of school 20 year old with 30 years experience and I'll pay them more too.

I can deliver a bunch of employees with 30 years of experience, who are overpaid. I can also deliver inexperienced employees who are underpaid.

I would argue based on their contribution to the bottom line, all tech workers, regardless of age, are significantly underpaid.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#127

Post by bitwize »

FabHK wrote: post #65
nomercy400 wrote: post #32

As somebody who does interviews for developers in a Java shop, a very blunt view of things: Any coding you've done more than five years ago isn't relevant anymore. I can't remember what I did five years ago. It is probably outdated, replaced or not in use any more. Looking back at my projects from five years ago, I would probably not agree with most of the code, as I've learned a lot of new things. I do care about yo…

> at least have a basic understanding about HTML5, CSS and Javascript I get that you're referring to the current job market for most Silicon Valley programmers, and are well aware and mentioned more theoretical CS stuff, so the following rant is not directed at you, but at the ignorant buffoons one sometimes encounters in this space: I find this notion so cute that programming is front-end or back-end, or maybe even…

Le me, on the phone with a crooter going over my résumé for the first time (because they only "came across" it, they didn't read it):

Crooter: Tell me about your experience at Xxx Robotics. Was it more front end or back end?

Me: IT. WAS. A. ROBOT. It didn't have a front or back end.

Crooter: O....kay... And what database did you use there?

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#128

Post by Clubber »

DrNuke wrote: post #38
oldboyFX wrote: post #33

I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination. Now this is 100% anecdotal, but I know a few 45+ year old developers and most of them are long-time corporate employees and are not really interested in the whole startup / bloggosphere / tech hype world. They have good stable jobs (think Perl, .NET, Java), and are mainly focused on their fam…

>Older developers of HN, what are your experiences? Over 40 here. The most difficult part is human interaction. Youngsters are obviously well behind their own hype and have their right to try. Mature folks like me take things with a grain of salt and acknowledge hard work is only a part of the picture, often not the most important. From a technical point of view, the headless chickens thing is also common but, again,…

>youngsters have their right to believe they are Einstein, Feynman or Jobs.

God knows, I certainly did.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#129

Post by wpietri »

humanrebar wrote: post #87
allengeorge wrote: post #73

I suspect there are a couple of reasons - especially in the newer/startup space: * Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. And they've probably a lot more personal financial responsibilities. All told, they're unlikely to go for the same salary as a new grad. * Interview process. Anecdotal experience, but, the interview p…

> It's hard to gauge experience I think this could be solved by coming up with a more common vocabulary of tech job titles. In medicine you have technicians, orderlies, surgeons, general practitioners, anesthesiologists, physician-scientists, nurses, physicians' assistants, teaching physicians, and so on. Not to mention all the hospital administrators. They're not all "medical engineers". They don't (at least not to…

Stability in titles requires stability in human labor. But our whole job is automation, meaning turning stable labor over to machines. So much of our work is defined by our current perspectives, our current constructed tools; those naturally change too. I think it will be quite a while before things in our field settle down, if they ever do.

My dad made software for decades until he retired. My brother and I have been working in tech now for decades ourselves. The taxonomy of job titles keeps changing. If tech people had allowed ourselves to be pigeonholed by some older taxonomy, then a) we'd mostly be unemployed, and b) there wouldn't be many people around to do the new class of jobs.

So at least for the rest of my career, I expect hiring will be not about getting an off-the-rack person who fills a highly specific title, but by finding somebody whose past experience is a good match for the current challenges.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#130

Post by wpietri »

jakobegger wrote: post #81
dogruck wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those points are actually age discriminatory. For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? Instead, it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company. I understand that many startups simply do not have the cash required to pay a high base salary. But, that's what equity compensation is for.

The problem with that line of thinking is that it is extremely hard to measure the value that employees provide to the company. “Pay them what they are worth” sounds straightforward, but in reality you just can’t put a number on a candidate. The younger candidate might be inexperienced but a fast learner; the older candidate might have a lot of experience, but might be reluctant to adopt the companies coding practice…

> “Pay them what they are worth” but in reality you just can’t put a number on a candidate.

I'm having trouble making sense of this. Isn't that exactly what the hiring manager does? Then, if that number is too far off, it gets adjusted later, once more data as to value comes in.

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