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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#41

Post by seanmcdirmid »

oldboyFX wrote: post #33

I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination. Now this is 100% anecdotal, but I know a few 45+ year old developers and most of them are long-time corporate employees and are not really interested in the whole startup / bloggosphere / tech hype world. They have good stable jobs (think Perl, .NET, Java), and are mainly focused on their fam…

Selection bias. The older tech workers that have survived the industry have done so in "safer" corporate environments. If startups have bias against older employees, they simply couldn't survive the industry there in general barring a few exceptions.

It isn't well known that people become more conservative as they age actually, younger people tend to be more liberal, they aren't changing their ideologies much as they grow. Again, this is just another instance of selection bias. Of course, when you have a family to support, you can't take as many risks with your career as you can when it's just you

Finally, younger employees are all about potential, you imagine what they could be, while older employees are all about experience (WYSIWYG). We are more generous with aspirations than reality when making hiring decisions.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#42

Post by taway_1212 »

mcny wrote: post #16
j10t wrote: post #8

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social ju…

It reminds me of a quote. The British number theorist G.H. Hardy, in A Mathematician's Apology, one of the most widely read books about the nature and practice of mathematics, famously wrote: "No mathematician should ever allow himself to forget that mathematics, more than any other art or science, is a young man's game." Basically, the claim is that people over the age of thirty being productive in math is an anomal…

> Basically, the claim is that people over the age of thirty being productive in math is an anomaly.

It can be speculated that young people often don't have a family and are eager to prove themselves to the world - so they have both the environment and the motivation to work extra hard.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#43

Post by andai »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #12
j10t wrote: post #8

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social ju…

On behalf of all old people: Fuck that, and fuck the idea that cognitive performance alone should determine whether someone in our industry can eat. Because as much as we love to tout that every programmer is living with a house and a mortgage and a happy family, I happen to know for a fact that some are struggling to eat. Eh. Not exactly an objective viewpoint, I know. But to maybe drain away some of the energy I ju…

I must be missing the point, but isn't programming literally cognitive performance?

As you age, your speed and ability to learn new things gradually decline ("fluid intelligence"), but what you've already learned and mastered ("crystallized intelligence"), can remain very strong until the end :)

But have heart! Many people have demonstrated that complex skills (playing musical instruments, and even reading and writing) can be learned well past the age of retirement.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#44

Post by [deleted] »

code4tee wrote: post #15

Startups and such typically don’t want young people because their smarter, it’s because their more gullible career wise. Sure some people get a bit stale with age but some also get far far smarter and their experience can be very valuable. “Hey guys we have no business plan or customers, but please pull a few more all nighters to finish this bit of code.” 22 year old living with 5 roommates is like “yes sure, whateve…

[deleted]

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#45

Post by d--b »

I'm 35 and I'm not worried AT ALL that I will be discriminated after I am 40.

I think in a way we're the golden tech generation, we screwed our elders by discriminating against them when the industry was in disruption and now we're screwing the younger generation like in any other mature industry.

I'm saying "we" as in "my generation", I don't feel I personally took a big part in any of it.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#46

Post by intellectronica »

oldboyFX wrote: post #33

I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination. Now this is 100% anecdotal, but I know a few 45+ year old developers and most of them are long-time corporate employees and are not really interested in the whole startup / bloggosphere / tech hype world. They have good stable jobs (think Perl, .NET, Java), and are mainly focused on their fam…

I'm a 40+ engineer working in startups and I can't complain - my work life is good.

I did, however, encounter age discrimination (where I wasn't the victim, just a bystander) a few times during my career. This is only anecdotal evidence, but this usually correlated with places where the management was not very mature and professional and there were other problems.

I am a bit worried about the future, but I also have some confidence that as long as I keep my skills up-to-date and demonstrate my passion and commitment to the work I do there will always be work for me. Tech companies are so starved for good talent that if you have what to offer there will always be someone interested in hiring you.

Ageism exists, and it is ugly (just like the other isms), but it's decreasing with time and will probably not be a problem in the coming decades.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#47

Post by andai »

scaryclam wrote: post #18
j10t wrote: post #8

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social ju…

I think it's sad that the myth that you have to be some sort of genius to be in this industry persists. It's just not true. Most jobs consist of simple work, no matter how complex the people doing it tell themselves it is. Experience is far more important than raw intelligence for more advanced work.

That's what bothers me about AI. When people say AI is a long way from [human quality or skill], it's missing the point. In most work, and even in our field, the work that most people do doesn't require human level intelligence.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#48

Post by icantdrive55 »

code4tee wrote: post #15

Startups and such typically don’t want young people because their smarter, it’s because their more gullible career wise. Sure some people get a bit stale with age but some also get far far smarter and their experience can be very valuable. “Hey guys we have no business plan or customers, but please pull a few more all nighters to finish this bit of code.” 22 year old living with 5 roommates is like “yes sure, whateve…

Let's not discount the magic of testosterone, hungry, and extremely driven males?

That said, those same males will steal your ideas, and smile in your fresh founder face. If you get the right person, he/she just might make your company a huge success.

Why does Peter Thiel basically want young people for his fellowships? He knows that's where the huge, big ideas come from. He knows there a magical age, with the right backing, might make him more money.

That said, most companies just need competent workers. Workers that aren't idolizing Zuckerburg.

So many companies are sabotaging their organizatons by not hiring the more mature employee.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#49

Post by intellectronica »

humanrebar wrote: post #40
intellectronica wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't make sense, but often people and businesses are concerned about it being awkward for someone to report to a manager younger than them. Rather than educate and reassure they prefer to avoid this altogether by not hiring older people. For many, there is also a perception that for someone to not have climbed the corporate ladder by the time they reach their 40s is a signal of failure. With younger workers thi…

> ...there is also a perception that for someone to not have climbed the corporate ladder by the time they reach their 40s is a signal of failure... How is this not age discrimination? Or do people make the case that age discrimination makes business sense?

This is not age discrimination, it is a description of one of the causes for age discrimination.

Of course it doesn't make business sense, and it's arguably immoral, but biases exist and the only defense against them is to be aware of them.

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