My Journey to a Better Language Learning System • Hacker News Board

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#81

Post by casey_lang » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

schacon wrote: post #64

casey_lang wrote: post #58

I've always wanted to be fluent in a second language and have tried in the past, but I always end up with the same problem. While I recognize that the only way to gain conversational skills is to actually have conversations, they terrify me. Engaging in small talk with strangers in my native language is hard enough. Trying to do it in a second language seems impossible. Even watching the demo video from the link, all…

This is the problem I always had with tandems and some tutors as well. One of the things I like about using our system is that all the exercises are guided. They have instructions, you can advance at any time, there is always an explicit task or situation or game to play. Sometimes the tutors read a story and then ask you questions about it, sometimes there are word games, sometimes there are situations where you're…

Thanks for the clarification! I've signed up to be notified when Spanish is added and will give it a shot

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#82

Post by schacon » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

akeck wrote: post #77

misiti3780 wrote: post #5

I have spent the last 10 months learning italian, spending a total of 7 weeks in the country, 150 hours studying, and 85 hours speaking on iTalki. I have been using the method's described in Fluent Forever[1] and they have been working extremely well for me. I have a speaking partner that I speak with 3-5 times a week for 1 hour each time (If you want to learn italian email me, he is awesome), and I keep track of lit…

Interesting. If you were interacting for 16h a day "in country" for 7 weeks, then (16 * 7 * 7) + 150 + 85 = 1019 hours. If State Departments say 400 hours, then this sheds light on why many non-native fluent speakers recommend immersion - there's simply no faster way to meet or exceed 400 hours of practice than daily immersion.

Think about how much time you spend a day speaking even your own language in your daily life. Do you think it's 16 hours in a day?

400 hours of practice is a pretty good rule of thumb I think, but that's deliberate practice, not just physically being awake in a country that speaks the language. You need to be engaging in conversation and actively processing things for those 400 hours. Plus it has to be at a practical level. Watching TV in Japanese when you don't know any Japanese doesn't make you much better at the language - your brain isn't really processing anything.

Or to make a music metaphor, you can't really just play with a violin for hundreds of hours and be good. You need a tutor, someone to challenge you at your level and help you make small steps so you slowly get better. Anders Ericsson has done some fascinating research on excellence and the important difference between doing something and deliberate practice at it.

Also, don't mistake being in a country with language immersion. When I was in Paris and knew some French, I would maybe be able to do a few hours a day at best, if I was really trying to engage. Even in English in America, I probably only really talk or engage in conversation for a few hours a day on average. I was in Germany last year for a few weeks when I was around an A1 level and I barely progressed, because the immersion is very surface-level at that stage. You have encounters but it's not really practice - most interactions are too high-level and don't help you because you can't process them.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#83

Post by prashnts » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 9:21 PM UTC

nnd wrote: post #74

schacon wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that immersing yourself in a native environment is hardly a simple thing. It's expensive - often in money, but always as an impact to your life. If you have a job, or spouse, or kids or pets, how does this work. I've actually done this and each one of these things is a huge problem. If you're a young, single person who can work remotely or doesn't need a job, then maybe, but that's not most people. If y…

> I would argue that immersing yourself in a native environment is hardly a simple thing. It's expensive - often in money, but always as an impact to your life. If you have a job, or spouse, or kids or pets, how does this work. I've actually done this and each one of these things is a huge problem. If you're a young, single person who can work remotely or doesn't need a job, then maybe, but that's not most people. If…

> You have to figure out what your priorities are, and if you really want something you'll find a way.

> Too many ifs, sorry but those sound like the same excuses people say when they explain why they can't travel (more).

That's a really narrow way to call it an "excuse". It might be easy for you but it's not a case for everyone. You were privileged to be able to do this -- acknowledging this instead of calling it an excuse would be nice.

> Using your intuition is crucial here. The rest is basically pattern matching. A single word you can understand from the context.

I'd agree to this. I learned English as my second language through this approach.

I am now trying to learn French and this is where it gets complicated a bit, unless someone can correct you. If you take the template for "I am ..." which translates to "Je suis ..."; plug in some word -- say, "I am sorry" for "Je suis desole" it works. But it can't always be expanded. You'd expect "Je suis excité" to mean "I am excited" but it translates to "I am horny". Point being -- pattern matching and cognitive techniques can only get you so far. Linguistic connotations are complicated.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#84

Post by schacon » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 9:24 PM UTC

jackpirate wrote: post #31

nileshtrivedi wrote: post #3

Personally, I would love to learn a language by watching movies/videos with 3 subtitle tracks: (1) What they are speaking - IN their script (this is called SLS: Same-Language-Subtitling and has been quite successful for literacy programs for one's own language) (2) What they are speaking - IN my script (3) What they MEAN - IN my language (i.e. translation) Data for (1) is easy to find. (2) could theoretically be gene…

In my experience, (1) is actually really hard to find. The subtitles (of translated english movies) are always subtly different than the audio.

I've found this for German and French too. If I watch a movie or tv show that I already know and turn on both the German language track and the subtitles, it's awful - they're almost never even close.

I would assume it's better for English because so much is produced in English, so there aren't two different teams on audio and text. I would try to find more German language stuff, but due to a lot of media region restrictions, it's insanely difficult to get foreign language material if you're in America. I've been known to pirate content just so my daughter can have French cartoons to watch. So frustrating...

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#85

Post by mh-cx » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

casey_lang wrote: post #58

I've always wanted to be fluent in a second language and have tried in the past, but I always end up with the same problem. While I recognize that the only way to gain conversational skills is to actually have conversations, they terrify me. Engaging in small talk with strangers in my native language is hard enough. Trying to do it in a second language seems impossible. Even watching the demo video from the link, all…

Not sure if it helps, but you're not alone. I'm a quite introvert person and often feel that things that interest me bore others and vice versa. This can be a real problem if you have to communicate.

I'm learning Czech now just for fun for about a year and tried to find tandem partners with an app called Tandem. I had some chat partners but they were text only as I find it much easier to have a conversation this way. Of course this didn't go very well. Most of them stopped responding after a while.

So right now I'm not sure what to try next. I definitely need some “hands on“ experience but don't know how. There really should be more offerings for introverts. I'm sure there's a big market for that.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#86

Post by KGIII » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 9:41 PM UTC

akeck wrote: post #77

misiti3780 wrote: post #5

I have spent the last 10 months learning italian, spending a total of 7 weeks in the country, 150 hours studying, and 85 hours speaking on iTalki. I have been using the method's described in Fluent Forever[1] and they have been working extremely well for me. I have a speaking partner that I speak with 3-5 times a week for 1 hour each time (If you want to learn italian email me, he is awesome), and I keep track of lit…

Interesting. If you were interacting for 16h a day "in country" for 7 weeks, then (16 * 7 * 7) + 150 + 85 = 1019 hours. If State Departments say 400 hours, then this sheds light on why many non-native fluent speakers recommend immersion - there's simply no faster way to meet or exceed 400 hours of practice than daily immersion.

Absolutely...

Academically, I've only failed two things. Typing and Spanish. Today, I'm fluent in Spanish - though a bit slower than natives.

Why? I spent a whole lot of time with my pidgin Spanish below the border. Eventually, I just learned. I did make an effort to learn a few things every day, but I ended up actually learning more than that and doing so without even realizing it.

I can't write Spanish, but I can read it. I can write it well enough so that I could probably pass for a mentally handicapped third grader. But, I can speak the language.

Other than some basic phrases, it's the only other spoken language I'm even remotely fluent. (I also sign, ASL specifically, which has been surprisingly handy.)

So, if someone really wants to learn a language, go visit the country where it is spoken and don't hang out with tourists. Learn a few phrases (ordering beer and where is the bathroom are good starters) and you'll pick up the rest.

As near as I can tell, people are very happy to help. I'm not sure if there is some psychological thing to it, but people seem really helpful when you're making a legitimate effort to learn their language.

By fluent, I mean able to understand and convey what is needed and not sound too silly. I'm sure I'm not always using proper Spanish.

"Mí nescito habla Español, no Englais por favor."

That got me started along my journey of Spanish speaking. I'd say I was okay after two weeks. Okay enough to get get around. I was not bad after a month. I was actually able to have a full conversation, without much thought, after about three months.

Also, I'm not sure...

Here's a puzzle for you people into psych stuff.

During my immersion, I would sometimes dream in Spanish. Except, in my dreams, I was fluent. As in, I would prattle on and converse in Spanish - fluently. Except, at the time, I wasn't actually fluent.

What language was I really speaking in my dream?

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#87

Post by KGIII » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 9:44 PM UTC

casey_lang wrote: post #58

I've always wanted to be fluent in a second language and have tried in the past, but I always end up with the same problem. While I recognize that the only way to gain conversational skills is to actually have conversations, they terrify me. Engaging in small talk with strangers in my native language is hard enough. Trying to do it in a second language seems impossible. Even watching the demo video from the link, all…

Why is it terrifying? I may have some experience to share and you might be able to get something from that.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#88

Post by irrational » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 9:50 PM UTC

KGIII wrote: post #86

akeck wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. If you were interacting for 16h a day "in country" for 7 weeks, then (16 * 7 * 7) + 150 + 85 = 1019 hours. If State Departments say 400 hours, then this sheds light on why many non-native fluent speakers recommend immersion - there's simply no faster way to meet or exceed 400 hours of practice than daily immersion.

Absolutely... Academically, I've only failed two things. Typing and Spanish. Today, I'm fluent in Spanish - though a bit slower than natives. Why? I spent a whole lot of time with my pidgin Spanish below the border. Eventually, I just learned. I did make an effort to learn a few things every day, but I ended up actually learning more than that and doing so without even realizing it. I can't write Spanish, but I can r…

I've never dreamt, so I'm not sure how dreams work, but maybe you were speaking English but your dream interpreted it as Spanish?

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#89

Post by KGIII » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 9:51 PM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #27

gramie wrote: post #19

I have been using http://www.languagetransfer.org to learn Spanish, and it is the best language system, aside from total immersion, I have ever used (I speak five language with varying degrees of fluency). It is a series of audio files, typically about 10 minutes each, and all you do is listen to them, answering questions when the instructor asks. German, Italian, Greek, Turkish, Swahili, Spanish, and others. It's a…

I just went to the site. From the description, it sounds like a similar method to that used in the Michel Thomas CD courses. I'll definitely try it!

I have zero experience with it, but I've heard many good things about the Rosetta Stone software. As in, I know real life people who have used it and gush about it it.

I'm not able to judge their fluency, but some of them have been using it to learn a variety of different languages. The lady that lives at the neighboring farm speaks at least a dozen languages and she's learned all but two of them with the software.

She speaks passable French and Spanish (and English, of course) so I can vouch for the Spanish and the missus is fluent in French.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#90

Post by schacon » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 9:51 PM UTC

KGIII wrote: post #86

akeck wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. If you were interacting for 16h a day "in country" for 7 weeks, then (16 * 7 * 7) + 150 + 85 = 1019 hours. If State Departments say 400 hours, then this sheds light on why many non-native fluent speakers recommend immersion - there's simply no faster way to meet or exceed 400 hours of practice than daily immersion.

Absolutely... Academically, I've only failed two things. Typing and Spanish. Today, I'm fluent in Spanish - though a bit slower than natives. Why? I spent a whole lot of time with my pidgin Spanish below the border. Eventually, I just learned. I did make an effort to learn a few things every day, but I ended up actually learning more than that and doing so without even realizing it. I can't write Spanish, but I can r…

That's interesting. I studied ASL for several years in college and got fairly competent at it (volunteered in an integrated elementary school, helped at some Deaf-Blind events, went clubbing with Deaf friends, etc) but have had very few occasions to use it in the last 15 years since graduating. In what situations do you find yourself using it?