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My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

chatterbug.com

71–80 of 134 posts

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this snarkily, but I don’t see what is wrong with someone growing up and wanting to try to use coding to solve problems relevant to their stage of life. It turns out some problems are complex, but so what? I’ve been working on “programming interfaces for beginners” for 12 years and still haven’t succeeded. That’s not because I’m dumb, nor is everyone who thought it would be easy and failed. It’s because there…

Not meant to be snarky at all. Though I do wish my comment wasn't the top voted one. People, please upvote the other on topic comments or have the mods bury it. FWIW this is basically my path. I've done pretty much all of them to some degree and a few in earnest. In fact I'm working on my own language learning "tool" while I wait around for #10.

I agree with you that topcommentness can subtly but immensely change a comment's meaning, through no fault of the commenter or even any individual upvoter.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#72

I highly recommend trying the app. The user interface is beautiful and the approach seems effective. I could actually see this being used in a German language school to supplement the curriculum, unlike pretty much every language app I've seen so far. I find Pimsleur to be a highly effective spoken language acquisition tool, but the writing/reading aspect is abysmal and quite demotivating. Chatterbug seems to be doin…

Another vote for Pimsleur, at least for quickly acquiring a basic set of phrases and words for travel purposes. I've used 5 different Pimsleur courses (Turkish, Italian, Greek, Russian, and Dutch) in preparation for various international trips. I've found going through just the first 8 or 10 lessons is enough to get the necessary survival phrases firmly embedded in my memory. Pimseur also offers lessons intermediate and advanced courses that can take you to greater fluency, but I've never pursued any courses that far. If I really wanted to work toward fluency in a language, I'd probably start out with a different method.

As others have pointed out, Pimsleur is oriented strictly to the spoken language, so if you need to be able to read the language, it would make sense to supplement it with separate written course materials, especially if the orthography of the target language is particularly different than your own (e.g., Greek and Mandarin).

On a side note, I also find doing a 30-minute Pimsleur course to be a great mental exercise. Recalling the phraes and responding to the prompts, I literally feel like rarely-used parts of my brain are getting a workout.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the attitude "this problem is unsolved and no-one seems to be working on it. I'll fix it, even though I'm not an expert in the domain... because coding fix everything". Don't get me wrong, this is a very common problem for engineers (I'm an engineer and I fall into that trap every now and then). But from the post, what's lacking is actually talking and working head-head with teachers and linguists and…

I think the problem with this view is that academic linguistics has a limited amount of useful information to tell people who are trying to learn a language. Absolutely people learning a language need informed linguistic advice. And our understanding of language learning is much less rudimentary than it used to be. But linguistics is a multidisciplinary, multiparadigmatic field in which there is serious disagreement…

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Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#74
post #67
post #57

Learning a language is simple. Immerse yourself in the environment where everyone speaks the language (travel to that country) and force yourself to speak that language only at all times. This is the key. I’ve learned German like that in two months.

I would argue that immersing yourself in a native environment is hardly a simple thing. It's expensive - often in money, but always as an impact to your life. If you have a job, or spouse, or kids or pets, how does this work. I've actually done this and each one of these things is a huge problem. If you're a young, single person who can work remotely or doesn't need a job, then maybe, but that's not most people. If y…

> I would argue that immersing yourself in a native environment is hardly a simple thing. It's expensive - often in money, but always as an impact to your life. If you have a job, or spouse, or kids or pets, how does this work. I've actually done this and each one of these things is a huge problem. If you're a young, single person who can work remotely or doesn't need a job, then maybe, but that's not most people. If you do need a job, getting a visa to work in a new country is also non-trivial and often impossible.

Too many ifs, sorry but those sound like the same excuses people say when they explain why they can't travel (more). You have to figure out what your priorities are, and if you really want something you'll find a way.

>It's also not just on you to "force yourself to speak a language". You need someone to listen to you.

Easy. Just go buy some food. You don't need much language skills for that task and it's a start. Or if you are single, go on a date with someone who doesn't speak your language (this was personally the most efficient way for me personally). You overcomplicate things. Your rate of learning a language is proportional of how uncomfortable you want to be. I've seen people studying in language schools for years until they get everything perfect and they can't even maintain a basic conversation. Overall this idea applies to all learning: "to become a master you should be willing to be a fool", i.e. make mistakes.

> It's also very hard to pick up vocabulary implicitly from conversations unless you have some base. My German is good enough now that if I don't understand a word I can ask them to rephrase it using other words and I can often get it. Children can do so just from environmental and contextual input often, but it takes them _years_. So you still have to spend a lot of time studying and building vocab on your own in order to try out.

Most of the information is communicated via non-verbal channels: body language and intonation for example. Using your intuition is crucial here. The rest is basically pattern matching. A single word you can understand from the context. Once you understand > 50% words in a sentence, you can derive the rest from the context and then it becomes a self-reinforcing learning system.

Well, children also don't have the same intellect as an adult and cannot apply more sophisticated learned cognitive techniques.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#75

I have spent the last 10 months learning italian, spending a total of 7 weeks in the country, 150 hours studying, and 85 hours speaking on iTalki. I have been using the method's described in Fluent Forever[1] and they have been working extremely well for me. I have a speaking partner that I speak with 3-5 times a week for 1 hour each time (If you want to learn italian email me, he is awesome), and I keep track of lit…

I'm learning German with Fluent Forever, and though it's a bit early to have a definitive opinion, so far it's going really well, far better than any of my previous attempts. Fantastic method.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#76
That video convinced me and was ready to give you all my money since I have some time right now. But unfortunately the two languages i’d like to learn ( mandarin and hebrew) aren’t there.

Anyone could recommend me a system for Chinese or Hebrew ?

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#77

I have spent the last 10 months learning italian, spending a total of 7 weeks in the country, 150 hours studying, and 85 hours speaking on iTalki. I have been using the method's described in Fluent Forever[1] and they have been working extremely well for me. I have a speaking partner that I speak with 3-5 times a week for 1 hour each time (If you want to learn italian email me, he is awesome), and I keep track of lit…

Interesting. If you were interacting for 16h a day "in country" for 7 weeks, then (16 * 7 * 7) + 150 + 85 = 1019 hours. If State Departments say 400 hours, then this sheds light on why many non-native fluent speakers recommend immersion - there's simply no faster way to meet or exceed 400 hours of practice than daily immersion.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#78
post #76

That video convinced me and was ready to give you all my money since I have some time right now. But unfortunately the two languages i’d like to learn ( mandarin and hebrew) aren’t there. Anyone could recommend me a system for Chinese or Hebrew ?

skritter.com is good for Chinese writing.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#79

I've always wanted to be fluent in a second language and have tried in the past, but I always end up with the same problem. While I recognize that the only way to gain conversational skills is to actually have conversations, they terrify me. Engaging in small talk with strangers in my native language is hard enough. Trying to do it in a second language seems impossible. Even watching the demo video from the link, all…

You should get some help with your terror of these conversations. Having learned a couple of languages myself, and having tried just about everything, I have to agree with the author of the app that getting into real conversations is by far the fastest way to learn a language. Nothing comes anywhere close. The other tools like spaced repetition via Anki or another tool, are somewhat important. But they just help reinforce what you learn via conversation.

It can be done. I used to get nervous in a private business meeting with more than two people. Through practice and pushing myself I've made it all the way to speaking in public in front of hundreds of people on many occasions. Tackle your fear of these conversations first because it's an important life skill. I'm not saying you have to make it all the way to public speaking. But at least get very comfortable with small talk among a few people. There are even courses for it. Then learn a new language after.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#80

Personally, I would love to learn a language by watching movies/videos with 3 subtitle tracks: (1) What they are speaking - IN their script (this is called SLS: Same-Language-Subtitling and has been quite successful for literacy programs for one's own language) (2) What they are speaking - IN my script (3) What they MEAN - IN my language (i.e. translation) Data for (1) is easy to find. (2) could theoretically be gene…

I use movies a lot for learning a new language. Try using only the subtitles in the language you are learning.

Subtitles in your own language will actually slow you way down. You'll stop hearing the words in the foreign language and just read your native language.

At first it will seem very difficult to have only the foreign language subtitles, but once you start seeing the repeated phrases and see the context in which it happens, you'll pick up new phrases very quickly.

It does take a leap of faith, because at first you'll understand almost nothing and it might be a bit boring or frustrating. If you stick with it, it's pretty powerful.

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