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Why is computer science a sausage fest?

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Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#61

Post by calibraxis »

philwelch wrote: post #30

On someone's complaint about Google setting up a special grant program for women, OP writes: This stinks of jealousy. Why not be happy for the female students? Why rain on someone else’s parade? Something good happening to someone else seems to disgust fringley. Frankly, it comes off as childish. That's a terrible argument. Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? "So what if all the nice houses and neigh…

Actually, a better analogy would be African-Americans getting extra scholarships, to compensate for the relative lack of wealth their families accumulated. I certainly wouldn't begrudge this.

Whatever cognitive differences there are between the sexes, I think they're very minor. Do they keep people like Shakespeare from being considered great writers, though women are said to have stronger verbal ability?

Anyone reading Hacker News knows how important communication, teamwork and the human elements are, in real-world software development. We are not troglodytes who shuffle into the office at night to partake in an ancient ritual of becoming one with the Platonic forms. (Not most of us, at least.) The reality is more like Office Space.

In fact, it is strange to consider men good at even just the technical aspects of programming. Most apparently have a hard time solving basic programming tasks (a common complaint here). Lore abounds of programmers with intimidating resumes who turn out to have problems with basic datastructures. The software world looks less like a meritocracy, and more like a cushy office job that beats working at Wendy's.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#63

Post by heatdeath »

tkahn6 wrote: post #36
dieterrams wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I like video games" often translates to "I want to work in the video game industry" often translates to "I'll learn how to program." More generally, however, enthusiasm for video games makes kids keenly aware of the hardware that makes it possible. (Even at the age of ten, kids will get into console wars citing which has the faster processor, etc.) Having that technical background from an early age, however rudiment…

I don't know about that. Since we're going on anecdotal evidence, out of my 25 or so friends who play videogames, I'm the only one who programs. An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry"

How many programmers you know like video games?

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#64

Post by Tichy »

derefr wrote: post #48
petercooper wrote: post #12

A "sausage fest"? Classy rhetoric! Is nursing a "tits fest" or elementary education a "vagina fest"? It'll be great when intelligent people can stop identifying themselves or their sense of humor by their genitalia, race, or any other physical characteristic that has little to do with how good they can be as people . I agree that women might not want to hear "dick jokes" or "be groped" but most people don't regardles…

You're completely right, of course—but I have to point out that elementary education is a "vagina fest", and not even a self-selected one. There is definite discrimination preventing men from entering the field—mostly by parents who don't want men around their kids.

I seriously doubt that is the reason - on the contrary, I constantly hear that people would like more male teachers. However, I don't think the salary is sufficient to feed a family. Not sure if that is the main reason, but it might be a factor in men's decisions.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#65

Post by philwelch »

Confusion wrote: post #54
philwelch wrote: post #30

On someone's complaint about Google setting up a special grant program for women, OP writes: This stinks of jealousy. Why not be happy for the female students? Why rain on someone else’s parade? Something good happening to someone else seems to disgust fringley. Frankly, it comes off as childish. That's a terrible argument. Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? "So what if all the nice houses and neigh…

Let me first say that you are right that her comparison of 'cowboy' vs. 'good developer' is completely ridiculous. Talk about her prejudices showing in conjuring up that straw man. I've never worked with any developer that fitted in the cowboy category, while most did their best to fit in the 'good developer' category. However: Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? She could, but that's not what she is…

Fallacious arguments don't suddenly become good arguments when they're used to justify good conclusions. Hence, when I say "X is a bad argument for conclusion Y", don't interpret that as "I disagree with conclusion Y". In reality, I just hate sloppy reasoning.

When you say

That's why your argument is wrong: we're trying to offset discrimination against women here and we're not trying to defend the continued discrimination against some other party

you misunderstand my argument completely. You probably interpreted me as saying "reverse discrimination is morally equivalent to normal discrimination", but that's not what I said. I said that in particular, the argument that "you should be happy for the people benefitting from this discrimination" is a bad argument precisely because that argument does not distinguish between reverse discrimination and normal discrimination. "Can't you be happy for the people benefitting from this discrimination" is a fully general argument in favor of any kind of discrimination.

As I edited my comment to say at some point (I think before you responded), there are good arguments for reverse discrimination, but that isn't one of them. You've even provided some good arguments! And if you're in favor of this form of reverse discrimination in particular, then you should be even more diligent than I am in criticizing fallacious arguments for your cause.

When I say there are good arguments for reverse discrimination, that implies that there are moral differences between normal discrimination and reverse discrimination that a good argument will be able to pick out. If you say "reverse discrimination in favor of women is good because you should be happy for the women", that's a bad argument because the exact same logic justifies any sort of discrimination ever. If you say "reverse discrimination in favor of women is good because women are discriminated against and it needs to be balanced out", that logic can't be turned around to support ordinary discrimination at all. You can only make the case for reverse discrimination by pointing out how it differs from normal discrimination--asking "can't you be happy for the discriminated-for?" isn't an argument that does that.

EDIT: Merged paragraphs which seemed to repeat each other.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#66

Post by Tichy »

AndyKelley wrote: post #47
gwern wrote: post #2

As usual, I like Philip Greenspun's explanation better than all of the anecdotes and fuzzy generalizations in this blog post: http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/acm-women-in-computing http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science tl;dr: It's because the women who would do well in CS/STEM have much better paying, or easier, or more prestigious options available to them.

The problem I have with that logic is, why wouldn't men decide the same thing? The author's reasoning seems to be 1. young men strive to achieve high status among their peer group 2. men tend to lack perspective and are unable to step back and ask the question "is this peer group worth impressing?" but I ask, why? The article seems to be rejecting the idea that men are naturally better than women at programming (and…

For one thing, achieving high status might not be so relevant for a woman. A womb is inherently valuable, whereas men have to prove by status that they can take care of a child. Or rather, in theory one high status male can make babies with a lot of low status women. It may not quite work that way anymore in todays society (? I am not high status enough to know), but it might still be genetically driving our behavior.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#67

Post by gaius »

wisty wrote: post #57

Even if women (statistically) suck at programming (a common claim here), I'm pretty sure that even the good ones are turned off programming because of the lack of female co-workers, discrimination, and other factors. I'd guess that the average women in technology is underrated (only the real enthusiasts get through), and talking them down is going to lead to further discrimination. Would I suggest that CS departments…

Nobody should be "given" anything that someone else had to "earn".

Last I checked Github didn't have quotas in place...

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#68

Post by awongh »

Keile wrote: post #25
awongh wrote: post #14

ugh. I really can't help but cringe whenever anyone tries to throw their hat into the ring and take on this problem, even if they have an inside take. CS education also focuses a lot of effort on puzzles and very abstract concepts when practical applications where you can see the why and how might work better for women (and a hell of a lot of men). I like yummy algorithms, but we could make CS education more accessib…

Seems like you put a lot of effort into this reply.

I did, because in I feel like gender stereotyping in general is overstated. Are there differences between men and women? Of course there are, but blanket statements, like the one you made below I suspect women aren't attracted to computer science careers as often as men because they generally like more artistic and creative ventures ...I feel like it's statements like this that don't help things. Women are more artistic and creative? I'd like to think that gender is a more nuanced (and maybe fluid?) thing, that has more subtle qualities to it than reductive statements like that suggest it does.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#69

Post by astartup1 »

There is discrimination not against women but certain traits that are abundant in females. And some of those traits are not suitable for computing profession. Like majority of guys will not be suitable for nursing. It is not about competition, guys can do better nursing if need be and women can do better programming when they do. It is this simple, if women are REALLY capable and NATURAL candidate for Computing, why do we need to create artificial channels for them? Ohh... I get it. This is like saying I have world class athlete but he needs a separate competition to prove it. But still I think if there is (and there is some) discrimination against women, then generalizing men as selfish and evil, won't do any good.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#70

Post by Confusion »

philwelch wrote: post #65
Confusion wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me first say that you are right that her comparison of 'cowboy' vs. 'good developer' is completely ridiculous. Talk about her prejudices showing in conjuring up that straw man. I've never worked with any developer that fitted in the cowboy category, while most did their best to fit in the 'good developer' category. However: Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? She could, but that's not what she is…

Fallacious arguments don't suddenly become good arguments when they're used to justify good conclusions. Hence, when I say "X is a bad argument for conclusion Y", don't interpret that as "I disagree with conclusion Y". In reality, I just hate sloppy reasoning. When you say That's why your argument is wrong: we're trying to offset discrimination against women here and we're not trying to defend the continued discrimin…

Ah, I understand. Well, there you have a another trap, which I now fell into: mistaking the pointing out of a fallacious argument for support of the argument to which it was a response.
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