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Why is computer science a sausage fest?

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Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#31

Post by andymorris »

mattdw wrote: post #9
Keile wrote: post #5

I suspect women aren't attracted to computer science careers as often as men because they generally like more artistic and creative ventures. In other words, most women prefer careers and interests that allow them to be hand-on empathetic with the objects and people around them. In general, computer science is hardly portrayed as such a career. It may involve aspects of these things, but women generally aren't aware…

"…dominant culture that discourages women from even entering a computer lab filled with sweaty nerds, much less think about joining them." You have a good point here, but it's not just that they're sweaty, it's that all too often they're actively hostile to women – whether it's sexist jokes, an obsession with rape in DND games (all too frequent) or just the way they seem shocked that a woman could actually be good at…

For pretty much all of my coding life, I distanced myself from the other people doing CS. I stayed and worked hard at it because I enjoy it, and definitely out of no love for the "dominant culture".

Yes, we're all a socially inept bunch of geeks, whatever. Socially inept girls should fit right in, and the rest of the girls can do what I did - ignore it, and just focus on learning.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#32

Post by dman »

dieterrams wrote: post #27
dman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also of note : according to http://gamegirl.blogfaction.com/article/107252/top-7-statist... and http://www.grabstats.com/statcategorymain.asp?StatCatID=13 nearly 40% of video game players are women.

Yes, but 82.5% of female gamers are 18 or older, and they're more likely to be playing Bejeweled and such. The relevant time period here is during pre-college years, and the relevant video games are generally the ones that actually require the latest (or some recent) generation of hardware. Casual games typically don't make you think, "Can I run this?" or "How would this be better if I had better hardware?"

While totally conceding the part about younger players being more likely to be spurred into comp sci by video games I do contest the hardcore games as a gateway drug theory. I think the thing that pulls kids in is the creativity of the games and the effect that the game has on them. So a fun casual game in my opinion would have the same pulling power as the latest version of crysis. fwiw this is subjective and I dont have any data to back this up.

One further point - maybe the 40% number is a recent phenomenon and it will take time for it to translate into more women entering computer science.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#33

Post by natrius »

alanh wrote: post #19

> On the other hand, he assumes those women didn’t deserve to be sent to JSConf. Why should he assume that? Utter crap. That’s clearly not what the critics are concerned about. The women may indeed deserve to go — but no more than men who are not being offered the same grants. This is what is objectionable. This, and the implication that women need pushed into the field or artificially assisted, strike some as sexist…

If women have the same potential both to succeed at computer science and to enjoy the work as men do, the underrepresentation of women in the field is a sign of problems that, if fixed, would result in more people leading more fulfilling lives. I think that is worth spending money on, and Google seems to agree.

Moreover, if one's goal is to benefit the field of computer science rather than just help individuals choose careers they are better suited for, targeting highly capable women when applying such fixes would have the most return on investment. If these same grants were given out without regard to gender, they would result in less capability added to the field per dollar.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#34

Post by _g15c »

"CS education also focuses a lot of effort on puzzles and very abstract concepts when practical applications where you can see the why and how might work better for women (and a hell of a lot of men). I like yummy algorithms, but we could make CS education more accessible by putting them in context."

Why must we make a field more accessible? It would also be more accessible if we just threw BS degrees off the back of a parade float. But, sorry, programming is at its core thinking about the abstract, learning to realize that, although you are writing in python/json/xml/rpc/wtf you are really just doing discrete mathematics. CS programs should not teach in the specifics, because frankly, the specifics don't matter.

This was the same argument that the women in physics tried to make when I was an undergraduate. Appalled at the poor retention rate of women in first year physics programs, the solution was to make first year physics more 'accessible' (i guess this means easier). I'm sorry, but this is not the right way of thinking about the problem. Raise the students up, do not bend the program to raise numbers.

Diversity is great, but context free grammers and recursive descent parsers are greater.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#35

Post by adamesque »

alanh wrote: post #19

> On the other hand, he assumes those women didn’t deserve to be sent to JSConf. Why should he assume that? Utter crap. That’s clearly not what the critics are concerned about. The women may indeed deserve to go — but no more than men who are not being offered the same grants. This is what is objectionable. This, and the implication that women need pushed into the field or artificially assisted, strike some as sexist…

Except, they're _not_ just assumptions of sexism. You should at least skim the MIT study she refers to in her article (http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html). It was an eye-opening, empirical study showing that discrimination did exist – and that it didn't look like ordinary bigotry.

I can't help but think that it's only possible to get worked up about reverse discrimination if you don't believe that the "forward" discrimination exists in the first place.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#36

Post by tkahn6 »

dieterrams wrote: post #10
kylec wrote: post #3

CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?

"I like video games" often translates to "I want to work in the video game industry" often translates to "I'll learn how to program." More generally, however, enthusiasm for video games makes kids keenly aware of the hardware that makes it possible. (Even at the age of ten, kids will get into console wars citing which has the faster processor, etc.) Having that technical background from an early age, however rudiment…

I don't know about that. Since we're going on anecdotal evidence, out of my 25 or so friends who play videogames, I'm the only one who programs.

An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry"

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#37

Post by mfukar »

kylec wrote: post #3

CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?

Not only is it a bad argument, it starts from a completely false hypothesis - the universities I graduated from had excellent programs which assumed no previous knowledge and I know that the best universities in EU have the same, if not higher, standards.

Also, something to think about: since the founding of the uni I got my MSc degree from, less than 3% of first-year students were women. You could count them with your fingers. The problem starts really, really early in a kid's education.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#38

Post by dieterrams »

dman wrote: post #32
dieterrams wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but 82.5% of female gamers are 18 or older, and they're more likely to be playing Bejeweled and such. The relevant time period here is during pre-college years, and the relevant video games are generally the ones that actually require the latest (or some recent) generation of hardware. Casual games typically don't make you think, "Can I run this?" or "How would this be better if I had better hardware?"

While totally conceding the part about younger players being more likely to be spurred into comp sci by video games I do contest the hardcore games as a gateway drug theory. I think the thing that pulls kids in is the creativity of the games and the effect that the game has on them. So a fun casual game in my opinion would have the same pulling power as the latest version of crysis. fwiw this is subjective and I dont…

> I think the thing that pulls kids in is the creativity of the games and the effect that the game has on them.

This is absolutely what pulls kids into games. What pulls kids into knowledge about computers is the realization that better hardware means they can play "better" games. This means they wind up with a pretty good conceptual map of computers at an early age. That gives them a huge advantage at programming over someone who just sees computers as a black box.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#39

Post by alanh »

adamesque wrote: post #35
alanh wrote: post #19

> On the other hand, he assumes those women didn’t deserve to be sent to JSConf. Why should he assume that? Utter crap. That’s clearly not what the critics are concerned about. The women may indeed deserve to go — but no more than men who are not being offered the same grants. This is what is objectionable. This, and the implication that women need pushed into the field or artificially assisted, strike some as sexist…

Except, they're _not_ just assumptions of sexism. You should at least skim the MIT study she refers to in her article ( http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html ). It was an eye-opening, empirical study showing that discrimination did exist – and that it didn't look like ordinary bigotry. I can't help but think that it's only possible to get worked up about reverse discrimination if you don't believe that the "forward…

You’re absolutely right about “the only way people would get worked up about reverse discrimination,” of course. What I object to is her assigning evil intentions to people she’s never met.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#40

Post by _delirium »

_g15c wrote: post #34

"CS education also focuses a lot of effort on puzzles and very abstract concepts when practical applications where you can see the why and how might work better for women (and a hell of a lot of men). I like yummy algorithms, but we could make CS education more accessible by putting them in context." Why must we make a field more accessible? It would also be more accessible if we just threw BS degrees off the back of…

It also doesn't seem to account for the reduction in gender diversity over the past 20 years or so. Around 1990, women were around 35% of CS majors, and today, they're around 17%. What accounts for that drop? I don't think it can be "puzzles and very abstract concepts". If anything, the core theory/systems/PLs areas have declined as a proportion of the overall CS curriculum over that time period, and more applications-focused areas have increased in prominence. Many CS departments now have HCI faculty and classes, for example, which virtually none did in 1990, and there's lots more robotics and other explicitly applications-oriented areas in the curriculum as well.

Not that I know why there's been a decline in women in CS over the past 20 years, either. But I think any explanation of why there aren't many women in CS now has to account for why there were more women in CS in 1990--- despite CS not being that much different at the time, and probably actually more "hardcore" systems/theory oriented.

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