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Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

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Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#181

Post by pbecotte »

brudgers wrote: post #114
segmondy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

58% of classroom graduates making $74,447 average seems better than most universities out there. Too bad they had to lie about it.

A general practice of many coding bootcamps is making admissions selections in part based on the likelihood of career (as opposed to academic) success. There is a degree of "would I like to have a beer with this person" in the application process which is absent from traditional academic institutions like 'Old State U.' One of the operating models of bootcamps is as a recruiter for tech companies. In addition to tuit…

I have hired or at least interviewed directly from several bootcamps in NYC, including the Flatiron school, and was never asked to pay a referral or acquisition fee.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#182

Post by mikekchar »

arkades wrote: post #47
segmondy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

58% of classroom graduates making $74,447 average seems better than most universities out there. Too bad they had to lie about it.

Is it better than a university CS degree?

In my experience (having worked with several people from boot camps and obviously several people with CS degrees), boot camps are much better at attracting/selecting people who are interested in programming and the long term learning needed to be a successful programmer. University CS degrees are much better at teaching CS, and even the skills necessary to be a good programmer. If you look at CS degrees with good co-op or intern programmes, then it's not even close.

My main complaint about boot camps is that they give students the impression that the 2-6 month intense boot camp is close to what they will need to be successful in their career. It's not. However, my experience has been that after boot camp it's pretty easy to reorient those people to understanding that they will need to work hard to improve for their whole career. Basically, a good boot camp graduate is very similar in skill level to a good 2nd year coop/intern student -- but then they need to study the rest of the stuff on their own.

My main complaint about university programmes is actually pretty similar. People leave the programme with the idea "I know CS", sort of like how Neo knows kung fu in the Matrix. My experience has been that it's much harder to explain to new graduates that they still have a lot to learn. People with master's degrees are even harder to convince. In addition, because coop/intern sessions are poorly monitored, quite a lot of graduates are actually completely hopeless at programming.

But either way, I think you can make a successful career. Sometimes you see boot camp graduates complaining, "How could I have known that" when the answer is, "Yeah, having 4 years to screw around with this stuff and do a variety of different projects really helps". Sometimes I see CS graduates say, "Wait, this complexity is completely ridiculous. Nobody can be productive in this mess" when the answer is, "Yeah, working on realistic projects has a huge benefit".

I personally don't like the current generation of boot camps, mainly because of the potential to exploit the students badly. However, I think there is a huge need for something like them and I'm looking forward to seeing how things evolve. Having said that, for people who know they want to be a programmer and are young/able I still recommend getting a CS degree at the moment.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#183

Post by WoodenChair »

rdiddly wrote: post #108
k8si wrote: post #7

Funny to look back at this now: https://nyti.ms/2vtd04V NYT on 24 August 2017: "The Flatiron School in New York may have discovered one path. Founded in 2012, Flatiron has a single campus in downtown Manhattan and its main offering is a 15-week immersive coding program with a $15,000 price tag. More than 95 percent of its 1,000 graduates there have landed coding jobs." two months later NY AG, 17 October 2017: "Howeve…

Makes the Times look pretty stupid and/or like shills either unwitting or paid!

I don't know why you're being downvoted. The epitome of so-called "fake news" is a newspaper reprinting stats a private corporation provides it in a matter-of-fact tone as the Times did here.

Instead of writing, "More than 95 percent of its 1,000 graduates there have landed coding jobs." The Times should've written "Flatiron claims more than 95 percent of its 1,000 graduates there have landed coding jobs." Those two words Flatiron claims are the difference between reporting and restating as fact.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#184

Post by lovich »

KGIII wrote: post #161
lovich wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked exactly one job that routinely took more than 40 hours/week and I make sure to not fall into that trap again. 50 hours a week standard is the same as a 20% per hour pay cut

Only if you're not paid by the hour.

True, but is that a significant amount of people who would be going to boot camps for engineering? The type of people who have the personality to get and succeed at consulting jobs seem to overlap heavily with the type of people who can learn on their own

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#185

Post by lloyd-christmas »

eccfcco15 wrote: post #173
lloyd-christmas wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some numbers: College: 30 weeks 40 hours per week 4 years = 4800 hours Work: 49 weeks 50 hours per week 2 years = 4900 hours And that's being generous at only a 50 hour work week, as well as being generous in giving a full 40 hours worth of college work. I think your comment perfectly demonstrates my point.

As a college student, I consistently put in 60-80+ hours a week into my studies. I know this is just one data point, but I think your estimate of what it takes to be a student is way off. However, I do take a lot of classes, and do research, so I may be on the upper end. (This is at a state school in the US.)

That's absolutely insane. I overloaded half my semesters and had a double major-double minor and didn't work anywhere near those hours. Maybe college has changed in the last 10 years, but I went to a very good school and had a drastically different experience. It's insane to believe you should be working more in college than after, let alone double.

Seriously, that's insane. I've never heard of anything even resembling that.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#186

Post by andrestan »

WoodenChair wrote: post #183
rdiddly wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes the Times look pretty stupid and/or like shills either unwitting or paid!

I don't know why you're being downvoted. The epitome of so-called "fake news" is a newspaper reprinting stats a private corporation provides it in a matter-of-fact tone as the Times did here. Instead of writing, "More than 95 percent of its 1,000 graduates there have landed coding jobs." The Times should've written " Flatiron claims more than 95 percent of its 1,000 graduates there have landed coding jobs." Those two…

In fairness to the Times I wouldn't call this fake news; just slightly sloppy reporting. Fake news implies that it's deliberately misleading which this doesn't appear to be. They are simply repeating claims.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#187

Post by rahimnathwani »

JessRudder wrote: post #103

The issue isn't fake employment stats. If you read the AG release, the complaint was that "Flatiron did not disclose clearly and conspicuously" what the 98.5% and $75k numbers consisted of. This information was included, in detail, in each of their job reports. This is from their earliest one from December of 2014: "Of the 225 job seeking graduates with salary information available: a. 162 accepted full-time salaried…

It seems the headline numbers were intentionally misleading, not just not 'clear enough'.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#188

Post by obiefernandez »

I was a hiring manager at a large shop in NYC. During that time I hired and worked with Flatiron School graduates. I know it's just anecdotal evidence, but I found them to be extremely competent, driven and bright, even in comparison to my non-bootcamp people, maybe even more so.

Jeff Casimir, admittedly somewhat biased, can lay claim to being one of the world's top experts on running code bootcamps. He has a great writeup about it here: https://medium.com/@turingschool/why-i-recommend-flatiron-sc...

I would give Avi and Flatiron School the benefit of the doubt in this case. I don't think they were out to do anything malicious or fraudulent.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#189

Post by KGIII »

wallace_f wrote: post #179
KGIII wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same things wrong with a wealthy person doing so. There is much more than is on exams. Exams are easy to pass, experience is hard to fake. Much, much more is covered than exams cover. That stuff is also important.

If that is the case, then it equally applies to university students. In both cases you study the material and are tested on it. There is nothing magical about paying to study inside a university.

They have more tests that are administered and you glossed over them covering more than is on the tests you mentioned.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#190

Post by lloyd-christmas »

lovich wrote: post #184
KGIII wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you're not paid by the hour.

True, but is that a significant amount of people who would be going to boot camps for engineering? The type of people who have the personality to get and succeed at consulting jobs seem to overlap heavily with the type of people who can learn on their own

You're saying people who actively sought out continuing education and were willing to do a career transition are people who aren't willing to learn on their own? That's just silly.
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