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Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

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Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#171

Post by vkou »

wallace_f wrote: post #164
KGIII wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... You think someone should be allowed to self-study, take a test, and be a medical doctor? You can do this with some professions, but I'd like to think my medical doctor has had actual experience with living people and cadavers.

Read my post again. Someone should be able to circumvent the academic complex's monopoly on credentials, as long as they can demonstrate the same aptitude and proficiency. At that point, as I said, the hospital training is just a formality with some exceptions. Surgeons obviously need to demonstrate dexterity and composure. Candidates need to show up to work on time, etc.

Residency is not just a formality. A pre-residency doctor is about as useful as a fresh CS grad who has never seen, or worked on a real codebase in their life.

Except that instead of checking in awful, unmaintainable spaghetti, they'll be making life or death decisions.

I wouldn't let an unsupervised zero-work-experience fresh grad be solely responsible for a product. Doctors make important decisions - without any supervision or 'code review' on a daily basis.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#172

Post by loudouncodes »

amigoingtodie wrote: post #85

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good bootcamp? I have an employee (graphic design) that has shown an aptitude in web development, but I do not have the time to devote to mentoring him. I can afford to send him to a bootcamp, but stories like this make me hesitant. Also, I have a front-end guy and a CS intern, who both could benefit from a SQL bootcamp (as another poster mentioned, team development, source con…

I recently hired several graduates from General Assembly and several from CodingDojo in Washington DC to be junior engineers on a team including intermediate and senior engineers. I would hire them again in a heartbeat.

Many years ago I was consulting when HungryAcademy graduated 24 engineers into the ranks of a large Washington DC based company. And they were all excellent as well. That program was run by Jeff casimir, who has also started several other programs, not at Turing School in Colorado.

I'd recommend any of those programs based on first hand experience hiring their graduates.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#173

Post by eccfcco15 »

lloyd-christmas wrote: post #122
ng12 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for Finance but if your CS degree isn't equivalent to ~4 years of work experience you went to a bad school.

Some numbers: College: 30 weeks 40 hours per week 4 years = 4800 hours Work: 49 weeks 50 hours per week 2 years = 4900 hours And that's being generous at only a 50 hour work week, as well as being generous in giving a full 40 hours worth of college work. I think your comment perfectly demonstrates my point.

As a college student, I consistently put in 60-80+ hours a week into my studies. I know this is just one data point, but I think your estimate of what it takes to be a student is way off. However, I do take a lot of classes, and do research, so I may be on the upper end.

(This is at a state school in the US.)

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#174

Post by KGIII »

wallace_f wrote: post #170
KGIII wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's marginally better. I'm still not sure I want a self trained physician. A lawyer who didn't go to school and still passed the bar is more acceptable. We standardized for a reason. Could those standards be changed? Absolutely. I still don't think some poor person should be allowed online study and then to pass an exam and be a medical doctor.

What's wrong with 'some poor person'studying and passing an exam to be a doctor? Fwiw, I'm still saying we should have residencies.

The same things wrong with a wealthy person doing so. There is much more than is on exams. Exams are easy to pass, experience is hard to fake. Much, much more is covered than exams cover. That stuff is also important.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#175

Post by ajmurmann »

asciimo wrote: post #44
jefftk wrote: post #6

"Between January and June 2017, Flatiron claimed that 98.5% of its students received employment less than 180 days after graduation and that Flatiron graduates had an average salary of $74,447. However, Flatiron did not disclose clearly and conspicuously that the 98.5% employment rate included not only full time salaried employees but also apprentices, contract employees and self-employed freelance workers, some who…

I think it's fair to demonstrate that you actually know how to teach adult humans, regardless of the subject matter. A license is a fair standard to measure. Maybe the license criteria need to be modernized?

Why is that needed for this particular field though? I don't have to have a license to be hired as a software developer or manager. I'd go to a bootcamp because their graduates get good jobs and I've heard good things about the experience, not because they got a license from someone.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#176

Post by stale2002 »

briandear wrote: post #149
stale2002 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is Hack Reactor or bust. Don't bother with any of the tier 2/3 Bootcamps such as general assembly, ect.

How is GA "tier 2/3" ?

Was that too high of a rating? We could call them tier 4 I guess. There isn't really any definition of how many tiers there are, so I didn't want to be too specific.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#177

Post by BallinBige »

jefftk wrote: post #6

"Between January and June 2017, Flatiron claimed that 98.5% of its students received employment less than 180 days after graduation and that Flatiron graduates had an average salary of $74,447. However, Flatiron did not disclose clearly and conspicuously that the 98.5% employment rate included not only full time salaried employees but also apprentices, contract employees and self-employed freelance workers, some who…

but did the students learn more?

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#178

Post by mkopinsky »

andrewem wrote: post #168
sekh60 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had something like that at UToronto Scarborough campus in philosophy. We had independent study course codes which were fourth year course codes where a student or small group of students could work with a prof to develop a custom course. Was amusing in that I think when I started studying there they only had I think four codes, but a friend of mine was there an extra two years and had taken everything upper level…

My university (in the United States) had a course code like this, except that it was allowed to be repeated so you could take it a number of times under the same course code.

UPenn has that. I took CIS 399 ("Special Topics in Computer Science") once as "Unix/Linux Skills" and once as a Python course. From googling I see that it's also been offered as "The Art of Recursion", "Open Source Software Development", and other titles. It is a half-credit course, i.e. half of a normal course.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#179

Post by wallace_f »

KGIII wrote: post #174
wallace_f wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with 'some poor person'studying and passing an exam to be a doctor? Fwiw, I'm still saying we should have residencies.

The same things wrong with a wealthy person doing so. There is much more than is on exams. Exams are easy to pass, experience is hard to fake. Much, much more is covered than exams cover. That stuff is also important.

If that is the case, then it equally applies to university students.

In both cases you study the material and are tested on it. There is nothing magical about paying to study inside a university.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#180

Post by wallace_f »

vkou wrote: post #171
wallace_f wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read my post again. Someone should be able to circumvent the academic complex's monopoly on credentials, as long as they can demonstrate the same aptitude and proficiency. At that point, as I said, the hospital training is just a formality with some exceptions. Surgeons obviously need to demonstrate dexterity and composure. Candidates need to show up to work on time, etc.

Residency is not just a formality. A pre-residency doctor is about as useful as a fresh CS grad who has never seen, or worked on a real codebase in their life. Except that instead of checking in awful, unmaintainable spaghetti, they'll be making life or death decisions. I wouldn't let an unsupervised zero-work-experience fresh grad be solely responsible for a product. Doctors make important decisions - without any su…

Fair enough, either way we both agree there should still be residency.
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