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Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

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Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#61

Post by pcsanwald »

lr4444lr wrote: post #10

I'm not the biggest job-hopper, but I've worked at 3 companies in the last 5 years in the NYC area, and have never once worked with, known anyone who's once worked with, or knew a hiring manager who would even consider someone whose only significant background in software was a coding bootcamp. For those who've experienced it, are they hired out of desperation into firms that need manpower and have enough more senior…

I've hired 5 people from flatiron school, all of which worked out very well. desperation had nothing to do with it, I found the folks there were very helpful with matching potential candidates to what I was looking for. Additionally, I found candidates to have more diverse backgrounds on average and that was a positive thing for me.

Of course, anyone coming out of a bootcamp (or undergrad if they have no work experience) is going to be a relatively inexperienced hire, and not all companies have the inclination/ability/experience/desire to support these kinds of hires and the mentorship they require.

I've been a hiring manager for a very long time, and my opinion is that it's foolish to dismiss any potential source of candidates, especially one where you are not directly competing with google/facebook/amazon/goldman sachs. Many people from flatiron have engineering or math degrees, and realized after school they loved to code.

Also, back in the day, when I was a sophmore in college, someone hired me to be a sysadmin when the only experience I had was running the network in my college dorm for 6 months. Within a very short time I was writing all kinds of code, learning a ton, and making small but meaningful contributions. I've worked as a software engineer ever since. My first boss took a risk on me, and it worked out really well for him, and me. Some of the best hires I've ever made had skillsets that didn't, on paper, line up very well, but they turned out great. These experiences are why I'm willing to take risks in hiring.

I think most hiring managers are far too narrow minded when it comes to this stuff, although I understand why that's the case, too.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#62

Post by minimaxir »

unclesaamm wrote: post #34

I know some folks who graduated from Galvanize's Data Science program. They were told that historically 90% of graduates find jobs in 6 months. She is 6 months out, and only half of her cohort has a job.

From my own experiences looking for a job in SF (where Galvanize has a strong DS base), full-time Data Science positions typically require a Masters/PhD, even if it is stated as optional on the application.

I did meet a Galvanize DS grad who was working as a DS at a large SF startup...in a probationary role created explicitly for bootcamp graduates. (I had applied for the same startup with a strong referral and was eventually ghosted due to lack of Masters/Phd)

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#63

Post by alehul »

An HN user's perspective as a Flatiron student, from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11734796

> One of the things that attracted me to Flatiron School was their audited jobs placement report. Very detailed statistics about how many students graduate, how long it takes them to find jobs, and how much they earn. I've never seen traditional colleges hold themselves to that standard of disclosure.

Apparently these phony statistics played a huge role in many student's choices to attend.

edit: 'illegitimate' or 'misleading' would apparently be a better choice than 'phony.'

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#64

Post by alistairSH »

lr4444lr wrote: post #10

I'm not the biggest job-hopper, but I've worked at 3 companies in the last 5 years in the NYC area, and have never once worked with, known anyone who's once worked with, or knew a hiring manager who would even consider someone whose only significant background in software was a coding bootcamp. For those who've experienced it, are they hired out of desperation into firms that need manpower and have enough more senior…

I hired a bootcamp graduate a few years ago. He worked out pretty well and is still with the company.

We (the interviewers) did spend a lot more time discussing him than other candidates that same year. He interviewed extremely well, had a compelling story about why he took the path he took, but we hadn't hired somebody without a 4-year STEM degree in ages. He was persistent, didn't get scared off by our hesitation, and we decided that his persistence was a strong enough additional signal to take the risk and make an offer.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#65

Post by lloyd-christmas »

jcwayne wrote: post #54
arkades wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it better than a university CS degree?

After accounting for the difference in cost and time required, quite possibly.

From my experience, boot camps are more frequently a supplement rather than a replacement to college education.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#66

Post by wallace_f »

cbhl wrote: post #57
wallace_f wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is incredibly annoying that access to education is held behind barriers of entry that discriminate based on socioconomics and race. Education has fallen behind industry demands and global standards. The industry has already failed this test of "demonstrating they actually know how to teach adult humans." 1. Education industry fails to meet industry demands and to offer fair, affordable education So, 2: Innovators…

Anyone can teach. Just look at the Khan Academy -- Sal started by just posting YouTube videos of his voice over Microsoft Paint. The thing that is held behind a barrier is issuing a credential. And it seems reasonable that someone generating diplomas (or claims they can teach you enough to get you a job) should itself be held to accreditation or a standards body. But we (software developers in industry) could be maki…

I agree. I don't think government is useless, but private industry is much better at innovation and meeting consumer demand.

A story everyone speaking of education reform should be cognizant of is that of Jaime Escalante.

Another issue aside from innovating to meet demand: Personally, if I want to sit down tomorrow and earn a degree in a subject, I don't know why I can't just self study and take exams to do this. To me, anyone in the world being able to earn the equivalent of a Harvard degree appears to be the ultimate policy in dismantling inequality and advancing opportunity. Why should Harvard degrees be limited to a small number of people? They really shouldn't.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#67

Post by dopamean »

PagingCraig wrote: post #45
dopamean wrote: post #5

Though it may seem obvious to people here (on HN) this is a much bigger problem in the industry than people realize. In many ways these bootcamps are repeating the problems found at trade schools in the past. I taught at one for a year, MakerSquare, and found it to be a rewarding and positive experience however I know people at others, including the company that ended up buying MakerSquare who have had different expe…

I graduated from HR recently and they do have their CIRR reporting stuff and it's pretty well done. They have tried to drag other bootcamps into using the same statistics, but there is no incentive to do that. I can't speak to their advertising and if the new numbers are reflected in that. I can't see bootcamps being around in 5 years without some major changes. P.S. Career services are provided for remote students.

> P.S. Career services are provided for remote students.

Good to hear. There was some debate about whether or not to provide services when I was there. I do wonder how effective those services are however. A big part of providing them is relationships with hiring partners in cities. It's a very tough thing to do from afar.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#68

Post by got2surf »

arkades wrote: post #47
segmondy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

58% of classroom graduates making $74,447 average seems better than most universities out there. Too bad they had to lie about it.

Is it better than a university CS degree?

"Better" is tough to say - coding bootcamps are focused on getting a coding job, but university CS degrees are not (CS graduates going into other fields [like finance], research/grad school, etc).

If the goal is to get a high-paying coding job as quickly as possible, bootcamps look good. Would be interesting to look at longer-term trends in a few years - career advancement, job type, management level, industry within tech, etc.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#69

Post by ghaff »

eqmvii wrote: post #26

The shady employment outcome reporting issue mirrors a problem that has plagued law schools for years. In the worst cases, all 200 or so U.S. law schools would boast about high percentages of students landing 6-figure starting salaries. In reality, schools often only disclosed statistics based on students who completed enrollment surveys. https://www.lawschooltransparency.com came about as a resource to try to correc…

It's not surprising that law schools seem to figure prominently in these sorts of stories. They used to be a fairly reliable meal ticket for liberal arts majors who decide it's time to get a real job. These days, especially outside of the very top schools, employment prospects aren't great and neither is pay even for those who do find a position.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#70

Post by jerrytsai »

unclesaamm wrote: post #34

I know some folks who graduated from Galvanize's Data Science program. They were told that historically 90% of graduates find jobs in 6 months. She is 6 months out, and only half of her cohort has a job.

As someone who attended that program, the statistics are rosier than they're reporting. I have examined the employment claims, and know the program pretty well.

I believe the 90% claim, historically, is close to valid. A fairer representation might have been 5 in 6 (83.3%), but it was pretty close to the mark. You can see where people in the early cohorts are working, and the success rate is very high.

What has changed? (1) Job market is more competitive. There are more "graduates" of "boot camp"s out there, as well as graduates of accredited degree programs.

(2) Admissions standards have dropped. With more boot camps, there are more students attending boot camps everywhere. Galvanize used to admit half as many students. Correspondingly, less qualified applicants are attending boot camps than before. More than half the reason prior Galvanize graduates succeeded in obtaining data-scientific positions was because many of them were already very well qualified for many STEM jobs _before_ entering the program.

(3) Hiring standards have tightened. With a body of data scientists out there, organizations don't need to hire newbies.

Boot camps can augment your résumé, but can't substitute for lack of relevant experience. A data science bootcamp will have great difficulty in magically taking a person from 0 to a data scientist job offer in the absence of relevant experience. Many of the people I've seen struggle to obtain employment had thin résumés before entering the program or had weak interview skills.

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