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Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

crowdedcities.com

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Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#101

Post by vanattab »

jldugger wrote: post #25
anfractuosity wrote: post #5

Also http://www.thecrowbox.com/ were they apparently trained captive crows to pickup coins in return for food, there's also a TED talk the guy behind it gave. I've briefly looked at the 'Crowded Cities' page, I'm still not sure how the crows realise they get food though for cigarette butts? Does it rely on them randomly dropping something in the pot, and then getting food and continuing to do it?

Didn't it turn out that guy faked his results?

I don't think I would go so far as to say he faked his data. But he did intentional misrepresent his work to the press and during the TED talk to boost his own status/ego.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/corvidresearch.blog/2015/03/12/...

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#102

Post by maxxxxx »

joe_the_user wrote: post #56
spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

Would you also object to training the mice that infest our houses to also engage in activities we consider useful? Perhaps say, training them to do their business outside? I mean, to describe the animals, like crows or racoons, which live in cities and consume human detritus, as "wild" seems like somethings of a misstatement - I'm not sure what the best term would be but "feral", "parasitic" or "coadapted" are seem e…

We should teach mice (and ants) to negotiate an agreement and stick to it. I would be fine feeding some mice or a lot of ants if they would just stay out of the house!

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#103

Post by elihu »

I wonder what other tasks we could train species to do in exchange for something they want? For instance, cane toads are invasive and toxic enough that predators usually leave them alone. Supposing that cane toads can be deposited in a receptacle by some bird who wouldn't otherwise eat it without being harmed by the toxin, could they be used to eradicate cane toads in places where they're not wanted in exchange for food?

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#104

Post by inuniverse »

Cool and thought-provoking idea! I was struck by this statement however:

Right now we are building our first Crowbar. All different parts are working and ready for assembly. Next step: testing with Crows.

Why not start with crow testing? That's the "Talk to customers" of this project [0]. Instead, they started off with something we can be sure of with today's technology: machine recognising cigarette butts.

[0] Technically talking to city authorities should be the first step, but I couldn't tell whether this was a for-profit project.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#105

Post by aaron695 »

elihu wrote: post #103

I wonder what other tasks we could train species to do in exchange for something they want? For instance, cane toads are invasive and toxic enough that predators usually leave them alone. Supposing that cane toads can be deposited in a receptacle by some bird who wouldn't otherwise eat it without being harmed by the toxin, could they be used to eradicate cane toads in places where they're not wanted in exchange for f…

Crows have 'learned' to eat toads. They just flip them and eat the stomach.

http://www.odditycentral.com/animals/a-fascinating-story-of-...

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#106

Post by coffeevradar »

vortico wrote: post #70
spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

>and the human responsible should be the asshole who picks it up. You're suggesting a solution to a problem which is impossible. Crows may be a solution to the problem. Convincing all assholes to pick up their cigarettes is not a realistic solution.

I think they've solved it in Singapore.

Not that I'm in favor of the methods used.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#107

Post by labster »

billsmithaustin wrote: post #90
spaceribs wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a systemic misconception in this thread is that we're teaching crows anything other than how to get food from a device we designed. They are not rational actors in this situation. They are never on the same playing field as we are. We would be taking advantage of their limited intelligence to do our bidding.

A hundred years from now, when crows run all the major tobacco companies, it will be too late to do anything about this.

If we're both still alive in 100 years, I know which avian you'll be eating.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#108

Post by danielam »

spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

I think your moral sentiments are misplaced. While it would be nice if people didn't litter, training animals to do something beneficial for us is not immoral as such, and especially not if no cruelty is involved. It certainly isn't slavery as slavery presumes rights, something animals do not have. To have an argument, you'd have to show that any negative effects of training surpass the positive. Even if it led to a decline in crow numbers for whatever reason, this isn't necessarily worse. The net positive could outweigh the net negative. For instance, crows are classified as a pest species in some areas and so a reduction in their numbers could be welcomed as a positive result.

What is worth focusing on in this domain is the unprecedented cruelty inflicted on animals in our times where, e.g., cosmetics, fashion and agriculture are concerned.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#109

Post by CamperBob2 »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #35
spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

Also, wouldn't the crows end up suffering from nicotine/tar poisoning on the long run?

More interesting, what happens when the crows realize that nicotine is a nootropic?

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#110

Post by Dylan16807 »

spaceribs wrote: post #85
lovich wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this more like teaching the crows commerce? If we controlled their food 100% and did not give it to them unless they did the work, I agree that would be slavery. This is just paying for a service. I feel like there would be bigger ethical problems over the proper amount to "pay" them than whether or not the act of paying them for a service is ethical

I think a systemic misconception in this thread is that we're teaching crows anything other than how to get food from a device we designed. They are not rational actors in this situation. They are never on the same playing field as we are. We would be taking advantage of their limited intelligence to do our bidding.

Crows have multiple ways to get food, and choose the ones they like. Is that not sufficiently rational?
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