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Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

crowdedcities.com

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Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#31

Post by jpitz »

spaceribs wrote: post #27
__s wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crows aren't punished for not exhibiting this behavior. Positive reinforcement training is distinctively different than negative reinforcement training. Slavery is the latter

I really don't think it matters if it's positive or negative reinforcement. You are making their trained survival dependent on a contraption which accepts trash for their services, that doesn't sound like room and board to you?

It does matter because the crows have a choice. They are choosing the easiest way to get food.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#32

Post by personjerry »

cujic9 wrote: post #2

Bonus points when the crows learn they can speed up the process by dive bombing a smoker, causing them to run away in terror, dropping their cigarette in the process.

Magpies already dive bomb everyone in Australia so they're 50% there

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#33

Post by retox »

As a thought experiment, imagine if this mutually beneficial behaviour went on for hundreds/thousands of years to the point that the animals lost their insincts for hunting/finding food independently. It would be a disaster if suddently humans changed the conditions of the relationship by, for example, outlawing cigarettes in favour of vaping.

Does anyone know of any real-world examples of this happening? The only ones I can think of are the domestication of cats, dogs and pigs, but left to their own devices those animals revert to their natural behaviour fairly quickly.

Edit:

I found this quote unbelievable; "Cigarettes are the most littered item on earth. Worldwide about 4.5 trillion cigarettes are littered each year." That's 650 for every person on the planet.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#34

Post by dTal »

__s wrote: post #17
spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

The crows aren't punished for not exhibiting this behavior. Positive reinforcement training is distinctively different than negative reinforcement training. Slavery is the latter

Slavery is not 'negative reinforcement training'. Indeed, it is possible to be a slave and be rewarded for good work. Slavery is where you have no choice but to work. If the food reward is substantial enough to be worth a crow's while, then it confers a competitive advantage and crows that refrain from this behaviour will face pressure on their food sources from the offspring of the well-fed crows; essentially you've artificially raised the carrying capacity of the ecosystem, for those crows that agree to your "bargain". Effectively, for the crows, the choice becomes "pick up cigarettes or starve".

I wouldn't worry about it though. If it ever gets tried on a large scale it'll be a hilarious disaster of unexpected second-order effects that will lead to the program's cancellation long before the whole crow species is subjugated.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#35

Post by VeejayRampay »

spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

Also, wouldn't the crows end up suffering from nicotine/tar poisoning on the long run?

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#36

Post by barrkel »

retox wrote: post #33

As a thought experiment, imagine if this mutually beneficial behaviour went on for hundreds/thousands of years to the point that the animals lost their insincts for hunting/finding food independently. It would be a disaster if suddently humans changed the conditions of the relationship by, for example, outlawing cigarettes in favour of vaping. Does anyone know of any real-world examples of this happening? The only on…

Consider our cells; they revert to their natural behaviour of reproducing without limit, in the form of cancer, despite 100s of millions of years of evolution.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#37

Post by rossdavidh »

spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

I think crows (and grackles, and other urban birds) have already changed their behavior in lots of equally big ways, to take advantage of where we leave food scraps, etc. The only difference in this case is there's some planning. If we don't plan it, it's not like they retain their natural behavior. Urban raccoons, possums, grackles, crows, etc. do lots of things on a daily basis they would never do if not in a city.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#39

Post by major505 »

rossdavidh wrote: post #37
spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

I think crows (and grackles, and other urban birds) have already changed their behavior in lots of equally big ways, to take advantage of where we leave food scraps, etc. The only difference in this case is there's some planning. If we don't plan it, it's not like they retain their natural behavior. Urban raccoons, possums, grackles, crows, etc. do lots of things on a daily basis they would never do if not in a city.

I used to work in an office in front of a MacDonalds.

The pigeons wold go in the trash and take fries to eat.

There, I witnessed the fattest pigeon ever. The thing was so big, that it cold have a lifebar over his head.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#40

Post by tzahola »

retox wrote: post #33

As a thought experiment, imagine if this mutually beneficial behaviour went on for hundreds/thousands of years to the point that the animals lost their insincts for hunting/finding food independently. It would be a disaster if suddently humans changed the conditions of the relationship by, for example, outlawing cigarettes in favour of vaping. Does anyone know of any real-world examples of this happening? The only on…

Except for pugs. They can barely breath without surgical help from humans. They also frequently lose their eyes due to recurring infections, because their eyes are too big for their eyesockets.

But they are cuuuuuuute :3

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