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As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

nytimes.com

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Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#71

Post by rickdale »

avar wrote: post #39
pirocks wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this necessary. I take it 747s have been safe up til now?

The reason the FAA considered fuel tank inerting in the first place is because of a 1996 crash of a 747 that killed 230 people[1], and which is thought to have been avoided had the tanks been inert[2]. Other 747s were lost to the same issue, such as the ULF48 that crashed in 1976 killing all aboard[3]. To answer your question, no, the 747 is not "safe". No aircraft ever made is "safe". They will all crash and kill pe…

Theres a lot of speculation about TWA Flight 800 so thats pretty interesting. I some how stumbled on CPAN one night and the guy that wrote TWA 800 Crash Cover Up Conspiracy was giving a talk. Listening to the commenters afterwards, all were either engineers, pilots, or former air force and seemed to be in agreement with the author. Theres a TWA Flight 800 documentary as well.

book: https://www.amazon.com/TWA-800-Crash-Cover-Up-Conspiracy/dp/...

movie: https://flight800doc.com

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#72

Post by Animats »

gist wrote: post #38
joezydeco wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that Boeing's original plan was to use the 747 as a freighter. Passengers would fly on supersonic jets like their prototype 2707 SST. This is why the 747's cockpit is on top, it provided a continuous open tube for cargo underneath. http://www.nycaviation.com/newspage/wp-content/uploads/2015/...

> Remember that Boeing's original plan was to use the 747 as a freighter. You have to wonder actually if that is even true (I've heard it as well obviously). Reason being Boeing may have been thinking SST wouldn't work or be practical (after all it wasn't) but it was easier to sell a 747 based on saying it could be used as a freighter primarily. If they had said it was just another long range high capacity plane the…

There are, of course, Boeing 747 freighters. [1]

[1] http://www.boeing.com/commercial/freighters/

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#73

Post by Animats »

louithethrid wrote: post #30
joezydeco wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that Boeing's original plan was to use the 747 as a freighter. Passengers would fly on supersonic jets like their prototype 2707 SST. This is why the 747's cockpit is on top, it provided a continuous open tube for cargo underneath. http://www.nycaviation.com/newspage/wp-content/uploads/2015/...

Has there ever been a flying wing approach to freight flights?

There have been proposals. Here's the Lockheed Spanloader concept.[1] Never built. The idea comes around again every once in a while.[2]

[1] https://books.google.com/books?id=jWlaIWwcsiwC&pg=PA112 [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=C0gUyoYewhoC&pg=PT183

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#75

Post by onetokeoverthe »

adrr wrote: post #11
tyingq wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but airlines have absolutely made coach seats smaller and closer together over the years. And we're fatter on average than back then.

You can still get bigger seats in non coach classes. The market wants cheap tickets not comfort which is why the airlines keeps shrinking the seats.

The STOCK market wants a tighter fit in economy.

IE; the OWNERS.

fixed it 4 u

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#76

Post by dogma1138 »

tyingq wrote: post #47
dogma1138 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airfare has also dropped by over 90% in the past 50-60 years.

A lot of the shrinking occured after airfares were already low. "The average width of airplane seats has declined from 18.5 inches in the early 2000s, to 17 inches by about 2005" http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/29/news/companies/faa-airline-s...

Adjusted for inflation there was also a decrease of nearly 30% between 2000 and 2005.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/artic...

Living in London I’ve paid less for some of my flight tickets to continental Europe on low cost airlines than I paid for an Uber ride within London.

So yeah while I dislike traveling in cattle class just as much as the next guy having sub £20 tickets to Spain, Portugal, France and even Greece is pretty darn crazy.

Heck right now I can fly to Chaina Crete for £19 with Ryanair.....

For reference this is just about if not less than what I spend on lunch and coffee on a working day.

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#77

Post by InTheArena »

baus wrote: post #10

This is an interesting book on the history of Pan Am and the role the 747 played: [SKYGODS: The Fall of Pan Am]( https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004J173SS/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?... )

Skygods is a great read. Another great read, with a wider net is "Hard Landings", which not only tells the story of Pan Am, but also of the rest of the carriers.

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#78

Post by tyingq »

dogma1138 wrote: post #76
tyingq wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the shrinking occured after airfares were already low. "The average width of airplane seats has declined from 18.5 inches in the early 2000s, to 17 inches by about 2005" http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/29/news/companies/faa-airline-s...

Adjusted for inflation there was also a decrease of nearly 30% between 2000 and 2005. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/artic... Living in London I’ve paid less for some of my flight tickets to continental Europe on low cost airlines than I paid for an Uber ride within London. So yeah while I dislike traveling in cattle class just as much as the next guy having sub £20 tickets to Spain, Portugal,…

Yes. It was a reaction to decreased flying after 9/11.

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#79

Post by rosser »

jameslevy wrote: post #57
danaliv wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the mass, it's the wing loading—the amount of mass being supported by a given area of wing. Airplanes with lower wing loadings get battered around more than those with high wing loadings.

My rule of thumb has always been that bigger planes tend to experience less turbulence, although I didn't specifically know of the exact concept of wing loading. Are there a lot of cases where bigger planes experience less turbulence compared to smaller planes?

I just came home from Europe, flying CDG-SFO on an Air France A388 (A380-800). That was one of the rougher flights I've been on, both in terms of frequency and intensity of rough air. The flight over wasn't as bad, but it was still worse than average in my experience. That's my only memorable experience with anything of that size; I don't remember the air on any 74x flights I've taken (not least because they aren't very recent).

I've never had a bad flight on a Dreamliner or a 777, and have flown trans-Pacific on both. SFO-LHR on a Virgin A340 was also pretty smooth. My long-haul experience on smaller planes is limited, as is my short-haul on bigger equipment; nothing specifically stands out in either case.

None of my experiences should be taken as more than anecdotal.

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#80

Post by dogma1138 »

tyingq wrote: post #78
dogma1138 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adjusted for inflation there was also a decrease of nearly 30% between 2000 and 2005. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/artic... Living in London I’ve paid less for some of my flight tickets to continental Europe on low cost airlines than I paid for an Uber ride within London. So yeah while I dislike traveling in cattle class just as much as the next guy having sub £20 tickets to Spain, Portugal,…

Yes. It was a reaction to decreased flying after 9/11.

Some reaction considering I can fly to Crete from the UK right now for £19 each way that’s what $25? A price of a Pizza?

If I don’t use the cheapest public transport I will pay more to get to the airport than I will for my flight tickets like 9 out of 10 times while flying from the UK to Europe on the cheapest fare these days.

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